Can we take things from the ocean?

[Rick Brant]

Why is fishing ok, considering it's the removal of a fully grown animal which is far less common than its juvenile conspecifics, but collecting a small fish for an aquarium where it may, statistically, outlive its brethren, is not?

I didn't say "fishing was OK". The OP specifically was asking about taking objects -- a shell and a jaw. The discussion bloomed from there to include all sorts of other collecting, I suspect because those that like to collect find comfort in the fact that fishing is a much larger issue than the collection of an occasional porthole -- and I agree that is true.

I find the fishing issue very difficult. It is a fact that much of the world is way overfished and it only gets worse each year. A lot of focus is on the larger nations -- China in particular -- having ravenous and expanding appetites for marine life, but fishing feeds a large part of the less-wealthy world as well, on a localized, survival and historical basis. Limiting fishing in any meaningful way will be a difficult battle, however I believe that battle will come sooner rather than later. As for why fishing is not worse than aquarium collecting, that should be obvious from my posts. I don't believe in collecting things simply for the sake of collecting. It deprives others for no valid reason. Once an aquarium owner takes a fish, I don't care if it lives or dies -- it's no longer part of the world it belongs in.

I look at things like this and then expand it somewhat. What if everyone that went diving took one fish? Where I like to dive there might be one frogfish at any given time. Last year we had one Great Barracuda for several months. Lionfish are somewhat rare. You look at yourself as one collector, but what if there were ten of you? How about 100? At my dive site that would decimate the population. Before anyone says "that could never happen", you may be interested in knowing that the number of tourist spearfishers in Hawaii is way up this year. Spearfishing is this year's InstaMadness and in Hawaii any idiot with a spear can take any fish that can get close to. At the moment they do not even need a license, although that is changing soon. As I said, laws do catch up with what should be common sense, sometimes they are just a little late.

 

[Dan]

I am a new diver. I just went on my first ocean dive post certification and while I was diving found a dead sand dollar and a Sheepshead fish jaw with teeth. I was tempted to bring them ashore but showed my husband and left them because I thought we couldn't take anything.

Mentioned this to the divemaster and boat captain later and they said the only thing off limits was coral of any kind (dead or alive) and living creatures and that I could have taken my finds for a souvenir. Is this true?

I was also on the boat with a diver that has over 500 dives under her belt and she mentioned that she had been turning stones, lifting pieces of the shipwreckage and looking under things for various creatures and finds. I was under the impression that diving was a "look and don't touch" kind of activity. Is this something that is allowed? I assumed it would disturb habitats and sealife to be jostling things around.

Just trying to learn the proper diving etiquette as I want to be a safe diver and not harm the environment but it would have been cool to have a few of those souvenirs if allowed.

I dove to Markham & Hyde off Wilmington, NC to see Sand Tiger Sharks with a guide once. He went down to the the bottom of the wreck & picked up something. When we were back on the boat, he called me & gave me a Sand Dollar fossil.

I always remember that nice trip every time I look at that Sand Dollar on my breakfast table.

 

[TMHeimer]

I didn't say "fishing was OK". The OP specifically was asking about taking objects -- a shell and a jaw. The discussion bloomed from there to include all sorts of other collecting, I suspect because those that like to collect find comfort in the fact that fishing is a much larger issue than the collection of an occasional porthole -- and I agree that is true.

I find the fishing issue very difficult. It is a fact that much of the world is way overfished and it only gets worse each year. A lot of focus is on the larger nations -- China in particular -- having ravenous and expanding appetites for marine life, but fishing feeds a large part of the less-wealthy world as well, on a localized, survival and historical basis. Limiting fishing in any meaningful way will be a difficult battle, however I believe that battle will come sooner rather than later. As for why fishing is not worse than aquarium collecting, that should be obvious from my posts. I don't believe in collecting things simply for the sake of collecting. It deprives others for no valid reason. Once an aquarium owner takes a fish, I don't care if it lives or dies -- it's no longer part of the world it belongs in.

I look at things like this and then expand it somewhat. What if everyone that went diving took one fish? Where I like to dive there might be one frogfish at any given time. Last year we had one Great Barracuda for several months. Lionfish are somewhat rare. You look at yourself as one collector, but what if there were ten of you? How about 100? At my dive site that would decimate the population. Before anyone says "that could never happen", you may be interested in knowing that the number of tourist spearfishers in Hawaii is way up this year. Spearfishing is this year's InstaMadness and in Hawaii any idiot with a spear can take any fish that can get close to. At the moment they do not even need a license, although that is changing soon. As I said, laws do catch up with what should be common sense, sometimes they are just a little late.

Well, I don't think any number of spear fishers, or shore/boat anglers is relevant for the big picture, considering what commercial fishing has done and is still doing.
Destin, Florida 10 years ago-- Limit for Redfish for anglers drops from 3 to 2 per day. For commercial fishers drops from 10,000 to 8,000 pounds per day....or something like that.
Besides, the % of divers who have an interest in spear fishing (at least in my area and probably elsewhere) is very low. Everyone will not go diving and collect one fish.
I usually poke spear about 5-6 flounders per year. No guilt here, and I doubt I'm causing any environmental problems.

 

[agilis]

I didn't say "fishing was OK". The OP specifically was asking about taking objects -- a shell and a jaw. The discussion bloomed from there to include all sorts of other collecting, I suspect because those that like to collect find comfort in the fact that fishing is a much larger issue than the collection of an occasional porthole -- and I agree that is true.

I find the fishing issue very difficult. It is a fact that much of the world is way overfished and it only gets worse each year. A lot of focus is on the larger nations -- China in particular -- having ravenous and expanding appetites for marine life, but fishing feeds a large part of the less-wealthy world as well, on a localized, survival and historical basis. Limiting fishing in any meaningful way will be a difficult battle, however I believe that battle will come sooner rather than later. As for why fishing is not worse than aquarium collecting, that should be obvious from my posts. I don't believe in collecting things simply for the sake of collecting. It deprives others for no valid reason. Once an aquarium owner takes a fish, I don't care if it lives or dies -- it's no longer part of the world it belongs in.

I look at things like this and then expand it somewhat. What if everyone that went diving took one fish? Where I like to dive there might be one frogfish at any given time. Last year we had one Great Barracuda for several months. Lionfish are somewhat rare. You look at yourself as one collector, but what if there were ten of you? How about 100? At my dive site that would decimate the population. Before anyone says "that could never happen", you may be interested in knowing that the number of tourist spearfishers in Hawaii is way up this year. Spearfishing is this year's InstaMadness and in Hawaii any idiot with a spear can take any fish that can get close to. At the moment they do not even need a license, although that is changing soon. As I said, laws do catch up with what should be common sense, sometimes they are just a little late.

I don't collect 'for the sake of collecting'. I collect because I wish to keep a specific animal in my aquarium, just as a fisherman catches a Mahi-Mahi because he wants to eat one. I don't have to have a fish in my aquarium, and neither does that hypothetical fisherman have to eat a Mahi-Mahi or a grouper. He wants to. He'd prefer eating a succulent fish he caught himself instead of making do with eggs and kale.

Lionfish are the bane of our existence here in the West Atlantic. We catch and destroy them by the thousands, but the population continues to grow and damage native fish populations. If you are hostile to someone taking a fish for an aquarium you should be equally hostile to someone fishing off a jetty and catching a Jack. Same thing, yes? Or are you imposing an invidious distinction that has no rational justification?

Florida requires a salt water fishing license for would be collectors of ornamental fishes, and sets a number of restrictions, a very rational approach. They see no real difference between individual hook and line fishing and diving with a small hand net. I started snorkeling with a hand net when I was in high school, back when Eisenhower was still president. I had freshwater fish since I was 5 years old, but decided to try marine aquariums in the days before all-glass tanks were developed. Marine fishes were extremely expensive back then, but I'd been snorkeling since I was in grade school, and remembered seeing butterfly fish, damsels, all sorts of tropicals in late summer. I'm still enjoying what I learned to do 60 years ago. You are right about most of us being old. It happens to us all through no fault of our own. You can, I suppose, take some satisfaction in knowing that most of us will be dead in the not too distant future.

 

[scubaozy]

WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU??? There's perfectly good music on Amazon! I would respect you if you didn't create all that noise pollution.

I will not disappoint you, in Germany there has been a lot of news about Amazon not being so nice to their employees. I avoid buying from them until they improve on it.
Some people like to live without enough consideration to others or the environment. I am not like that. You can be sure that no noise going over from my home to anywhere.

Agreed. The Jackson headstock, shark fin inlays and bound neck are not only dated, they are truly hideous. However, the compound radius neck, (new) massive stainless steel frets and modified electronics has resulted in the best playing and most versatile guitar I have ever owned. I reluctantly ditched tube heads over 30 years ago for digital and solid state rack gear. Sacrilege I know, but I can consistently reproduce hundreds of foot-switchable sounds at any volume level without having to replace blown tubes or eardrums.

You have a really nice selection of guitars for a wide spectrum of sounds. Bebop? You must be familiar with Mike Stern. The Upside Downside disc is still one of my favorites after 35 years. By the way, I think you are mistaken. Pretty sure that first picture is of Geddy Lee!

I like valve/tube heads but, they are just too heavy and loud. I am minimalist both in my diving and guitar gear. I actually often used solid states because much easier to carry and they can take a lot of abuse. I used to play with Korg g3 and later a4 back in the day.

I have been Miles Davies fan since my youth and he had an eye/ear for guitarists, I am fan of both Robben Ford and Mike Stern. Stern is absolutely amazing. Short while ago, watched an interview where he explains due a permanent injury, he has to tape the plectrum to his finger and tour like that. Such an inspiration..

Hehe, I used to get Geddy Lee comment quite often when I was younger, your remark really made me smile, It’s been a while last I heard it .

 

[agilis]

I will not disappoint you, in Germany there has been a lot of news about Amazon not being so nice to their employees. I avoid buying from them until they improve on it.
Some people like to live without enough consideration to others or the environment. I am not like that. You can be sure that no noise going over from my home to anywhere.


I like valve/tube heads but, they are just too heavy and loud. I am minimalist both in my diving and guitar gear. I actually often used solid states because much easier to carry and they can take a lot of abuse. I used to play with Korg g3 and later a4 back in the day.

I have been Miles Davies fan since my youth and he had an eye/ear for guitarists, I am fan of both Robben Ford and Mike Stern. Stern is absolutely amazing. Short while ago, watched an interview where he explains due a permanent injury, he has to tape the plectrum to his finger and tour like that. Such an inspiration..

Hehe, I used to get Geddy Lee comment quite often when I was younger, your remark really made me smile, It’s been a while last I heard it .

Miles Davis.

 

[scubaozy]

Miles Davis.

At last we agree on something.

Edit:
It’s actually Mac Davis

 

[Rick Brant]

Well I am almost 60 myself so no satisfaction there. Plus I don't take any of this personally. I have dive buddies that take shells, bugs and even some fish for aquariums once in a while. Live and let live is OK for me but OP asked and I answered what I believe is correct. The world has changed in 60 years and it's not only us older people that have not figured it out yet. Pretending like it is the way it was when we were five is part of the problem.

 

[uncfnp]

Well I am almost 60 myself so no satisfaction there. Plus I don't take any of this personally. I have dive buddies that take shells, bugs and even some fish for aquariums once in a while. Live and let live is OK for me but OP asked and I answered what I believe is correct. The world has changed in 60 years and it's not only us older people that have not figured it out yet. Pretending like it is the way it was when we were five is part of the problem.

Not sure I can agree with the age thing. I remember sitting in the auditorium in elementary school watching films on litter, water pollution and conservation. I remember my 9th grade biology teacher making roadside trash collection part of my grade. I remember taking electronics in for repair and service men coming to the home to repair appliances.

In some ways I think our generation is actually more aware of what we had, what is gone and what we truly stand to lose.

 

[Centrals]

.... much is forever vanished. There are places I will not visit anymore. It's too painful.

I won't use the word "painful" because it happened so often. I just felt disappointed.
Destruction or modernization? The difference is paper thin.