Can someone explain the ins and outs of drysuits.

[MKrauter]

Hello everyone,

I stopped by my LDS today and got talking with an employee about what my expectations are for diving in the future. I told him I'd thought about extending it into the Fall, Winter and Spring months. However, since I only have a 7mm, it'd be quite hard. This started a sales pitch on drysuits, mostly a Scubapro Everydry4 and a White's Fusion suit (for under 1k). One is a neoprene suit and the other is a bilam suit. When asking him about the differences he said not much but preference. I do feel like there may be a little bit more to it then that though.

When explaining the SP one, he mentioned how neoprene has good inherent thermal properties, but further reading once I got home showed me this isn't always the case when it is compressed at depth...

So, could anything give me a quick and dirty explanation on Drysuits, such as the difference between neoprene, bilam and trilam suits or Wet vs Dry gloves?

Also, after doing some of my own research, I like the look and some of the features of the Evertec Drysuit, but because I don't have a lot of knowledge on it I figured I'd ask. Finally, one last thing I've been thinking about is one of my OW instructors is looking at selling a Hollis dry suit (no indication on what kind) so I am somewhat interested in that as well (no word on price yet).

Thanks for any advice,

Mitch

 

[Instructor_Tom]

if you can get your hands on a Hollis suit that fits for a good price jump on it.

Hollis is the industry leader in my opinion for technical divers right next to dive rite and everything I have seen of there's is top notch. I own 2 complete sets of Hollis regulators and if I didn't already own a bare dry suit I would own a Hollis BioDry trilam.

dry suit explained:

a dry suit allows you to drive dry. you use a secondary low pressure inflator to put air into the suit as you descend to depth while closing the purge vale on the left shoulder.
when you ascend you open the purge valve and allow the expanding air to drain from the suit. when diving in very cold water you replace the air with a stand alone pony bottle of argon to add to the heat retention of the suit.

the intent is to keep just enough air in the suit to prevent a squeeze while at the same time minimizing the air so that you don't have a run away ascent. diving dry is about retaining core body temperature either due to diving in very cold water or when doing very long dives. when you start to push into 60+ minute dive even in temperate waters you run the risk of DCS (skin bends) if you allow your body temp to drop too much.

also as you go into tech diving a dry suit becomes mandatory as a secondary from of flotation. for example your diving a set of doubles and you bladder fails. depending on how negative you are or how deep you are you may not be able to swim yourself up. the drysuit allows you to inflate enough to get positive and float up enough to the shot your surface SMB or Lift bag to start you deco. without the buoyancy of the suit a bladder failure may be the end you. in tech diving self rescue is heavily stressed.

as a personal option you should never buy a neoprene dry suit. neoprene is for wet suits. a dry suit should be loose enough to allow you to layer up for the weather that you will be diving in.

for me that means going from shorts in the summer time to 2 layers of sweats over a layer of wool for my wicking layer in the winter time.

for you in the great white north this will include cuff seals for gloves and a nice thick hood. if you do get a drysuit spend some time getting used to it in a controlled environment and practice recovering from over inflation in your feet. the biggest danger of diving a dry suit is being in a head down position and getting all the air trapped in your legs as you start to ascend uncontrollably. it can be corrected, but takes practice.

hope you find this helpfull

DM Tom

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[MKrauter]

Thank you!

I will be talking to the Hollis owner tomorrow so hopefully I can get a price out of him then. Doing some research I like the look of the Evertec Drysuit. Seems to be a nice suit. I also have the option of a White's Fusion at the LDS, though I'm not sure how good those suits are..

I like the idea of the versatility of bi/trilam materials. I just thought that neoprene might help me in having to wear less undergarments in colder water.

As far as undergarments go, can you wear anything? Or does it have to be fleece/moisture wicking etc?

 

[spectrum]

You do want to do some serious screen and book time before choosing.

The Fusion has it fans but it is sort of a freak design. Don't lump it in with all bi-lams.

A neoprene suit (not crushed or compressed) with neoprene seals can be very comfortable with warmth and nice swimming. The cut often limits additional undergarments which does become an issue when going cold and deep.

Tri-laminates which many suits are provide a liberal fit to allow seasonal garments. It's probably the most popular long term suit. These have a durable fabric face inside and out with rubber sandwiched in between.

If you can get your hands on a drysuit class textbook BEFORE buying a suit it will be a worthwhile read.

Pete

 

[altaskier]

I took the dry suit class in a DUI CF200 (2 dives) and then rented a DUI CF200 for one charter (4 dives), and a Whites Fusion for another charter (2 dives). The whole drysuit thing was new enough to me that I did not form a solid opinion on one style of suit versus another based just on those two outings. Several friends had Whites Fusions so that's what I ended up buying. Now that I'm comfortable with dry suit diving I would be curious to try a DUI on one of their demo days, but I'm happy with my Whites.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

Hollis is the industry leader in my opinion for technical divers right next to dive rite and everything I have seen of there's is top notch.

If my eyes rolled any harder, they'd fall out of their sockets. Both Hollis and DR have become large, overhyped companies that churn out decent stuff all across the spectrum of dive gear, all generally at mid-level prices. I'm not saying their gear is bad, but one need look no further than raft of problems with their computers as reported on the HOLLIS subforum here to see they're hardly top of the line at anything.


As to the OP's questions: Neoprene drysuits are generally of the crushed/compressed type, meaning the neoprene has been squashed down into a less inherently buoyant, denser form. They are heavier than laminates, much thicker, and (unlike laminates) have some inherent insulating capability. Just because of their material, they're more resistant to cuts, abrasion, and puncture than laminates. They have some inherent buoyancy despite being a denser form of neoprene, so they'll still swing some at depth and will also require more weight to sink. Maybe bad if you have lighter tanks, but possibly beneficial if you're diving massive steel doubles.

Laminates are lighter, somewhat easier to get a precise fit in, and dry much more quickly. Getting the right undergarment becomes that much more important because the thin laminate shell has no insulation of its own.

DM Tom is quite correct that you want any drysuit to be loose enough to layer, but fails to mention the side effect of having a looser drysuit: a bigger space for the bubble inside the suit to move around in. Bubble control is probably the most important part of diving a drysuit, and the looser the suit, the harder it becomes. As already mentioned, the risk is of an uncontrolled, feet first ascent... something from which you need to know how to recover, since you can't just vent the bubble out your feet.

Whites makes very good suits, and probably more importantly, has excellent customer service. The Fusion suits have a unique approach to fit and bubble control that I personally like a lot, though I also liked the wool lined crushed neoprene suit Pinnacle put out; YMMV. Before buying anything from a LDS, check out places like diverightinscuba.com -- there are some excellent suit, seal, and zipper warranties out there.

 

[Peter Guy]

I can't believe I'm going to give kudos to Dr. L for a very good post -- but, KUDOS DR. L.

Anyway:

a. Scubapro Everdry -- What I tell my students is that IF you can get a suit to fit you, they are a very good bargain. IF you dive it for a couple of years, sell it for $400 (or so) and you'll have had a great suit for the remainder.

b. Fusion One -- I've had a Fusion (original one) pretty much since it was first sold. It is a solid suit and, to my mind, a wonderful suit for a beginner dry suit diver. It fits just about everyone due to its design but doesn't have the "air bubble" issue because of the Lycra outer skin. From what I can tell, the Fusion One is one hell of a deal.

c. How much air into the dry suit -- you need to have enough air in your suit to do the job you want it to do. Is it going to be your primary source of buoyancy control? Is your BCD going to be your primary source? Split the job between the two of them? I was one that started my dry suit career by using my BCD (anti-PADI in a way) because that was what I felt comfortable doing. (Note -- I was diving a full neoprene suit.) As I got more experience, I started putting more air into my suit and less into my BCD.

Finally, during some of my technical training, I was convinced to use my dry suit for primary buoyancy control and that is what I do now. My BCD is full only at the surface -- it is emptied to dive and I put as much gas into my suit as I want. I also dive "over weighted" -- "Lead is warmth!" -- so I tend to have a LOT of air in my suit which means I'm as warm as I can be.

Dry gloves -- the Everydry suit uses neoprene wrist seals and most dry glove systems don't work with those seals. I am using a pair of 4th Element wet gloves right now and am very happy with them (I'm diving a Fusion but don't have dry gloves that fit since the dry gloves we have that do fit my suit have been loaned out to a friend who needs them more than I do).

OK -- what dry suits have I owned:

a. High Tide Full Neoprene -- very heavy, very stiff, very warm full neoprene

b. White's Fusion -- very light, very flexible, warm with proper undergarments, hybrid bylam

c. Bare XL something or other -- pretty heavy, pretty stiff, pretty warm, compressed neoprene

d. DUI TLS -- While the prior suits were all purchased new, this was a used suit. When it doesn't leak, it is a very reasonable suit. I am not at all convinced that it is twice as good as a Fusion however (and yes, new it costs at least twice as much).

 

[Herb-alaska]

Good posts here but to add what I think is missing
1 make sure the suit you buy fits you correctly. Large enough to move around in and to apply the required thermo layer but notion large as to have a large bubble to manage

2 latex , dry glove or neoprene wrist seal and neck seal. You need to find what works for you. I have all of them. My neoprene is comfortable durable but will leak if I am moving around a lot so I mostly dive my latex I love my sitech replaceable seal system but I love the quick change of my diving concepts rings

3 front shoulder to hip zip, front neck and shoulder zip( whites) or back zip. You need to know what you want. For me it is front shoulder to hip although I have two back zips suits as well. I solo dive most of the time for work and pleasure and I can't depend on a buddy to zip me. I tried and don't like the neck loop that a whites collar type zipper has

4 you need to decide do you want socks or integrated boots. I like socks but I have both. The integrated boots are really convenient but when They wear out (tread) it costs more to replace than socks. when i need new tread or i cut a rock boot i just order new pair of rock boots when I need to. They also provide a bit more support for shore entry

i have owned 6 different suits I still own four of them two are neoprene two are bilam everyone else covered the pros and cons of each. They have pros and cons that only you can decide is more important to you. My advice is for you to read , shop, try on and dive as many different types brands as you can don't rush the purchase or be prepared to explain to your partner why you need more than one dry suit because you will change your opinion a few times as you dive dry. Selling a used dry suit plan on getting penny's on the dollar. That's why I still own four I would rather have back ups than give them away

---------- Post added August 22nd, 2013 at 09:30 PM ----------

I forgot to say. You want pockets ! you really want pockets ! Even if they stay empty for the first bit get them now and you will use them later and it is costly and a pain in the butt to add them correctly later

 

[TSandM]

The essence of a dry suit is that it keeps water out (at least most of the time ). That's the major characteristic that all dry suits share, but beyond that, they can be quite different.

Laminate dry suits (bilam or trilam) are made of a material that has no intrinsic insulating capacity at all. ALL of the insulation is provided by the undergarments. The warmth you can experience in these suits is independent of depth, assuming that you keep the suit evenly inflated as you descend. Laminate suits tend to be fairly light and to dry quickly. They are somewhat fragile (bilam more than trilam) but fairly easy to repair when they do leak. Expense on these suits depends on the material (bilam versus trilam, or special fabrics), the cut (more tailored is more expensive), the styling (piping and inserts cost more to make), and the options. Suits of this type range from some of the cheapest (USIA) to some of the most expensive (DUI).

Neoprene dry suits are basically the same as wetsuits but with wrist seals, boots instead of ankle seals, and a dry zipper. They have considerable insulating capacity, depending on the thickness of the neoprene. They generally require (and are often cut only to permit) thinner undergarments. They have some degree of stretch, just like a wetsuit does, so they may permit more mobility. They usually only come with neoprene seals, and Peter has pointed out the drawback of that. In addition, neoprene neck seals may not work well for a lot of women, because the ratio of the size of their head to their neck is greater than for men, so the seal is either difficult to get on or leaks when you turn your head. Two drawbacks of neoprene dry suits are that they lose insulating ability at depth, which, due to the thin undergarments, really can't be made up by inflating the suit, and the fact that, like any neoprene, they have a life cycle of compression/decompression events. Full neoprene suits TEND to be on the less expensive end, like the Everdry, but High Tide neoprene suits sit at a premium price point.

Compressed or crushed neoprene suits are very tough and difficult to damage (but may be difficult to repair if you manage it). They have some insulating capacity, but not as much as expanded neoprene. Like neoprene suits, they are heavier than laminate suits, and dry more slowly. Whether there is any meaningful stretch depends on the thickness of the neoprene and how thoroughly crushed it is. These suits can generally be had with either neoprene or latex seals. They tend to be relatively expensive but very durable.

The Fusion is a hybrid model which is in a class of its own. It is a laminate bag, covered with an elastic outer skin. Because of the outer elastic, the bag can be cut very generously without ballooning -- thus allowing a high degree of mobility. The outer skin will catch on things underwater, but stretch and eventually slip off the object, thus protecting the inner bag from damage. As a result, these are hard suits to hurt. The weight of the suit, and its drying characteristics, depend on which outer skin you select -- the Lycra is light and dries quickly; the Bullet is the heaviest and slowest to dry. Pockets are available on the Tech and Bullet skins, but the Sport requires either some very clever and fairly extensive DIY, or neoprene shorts with pockets worn over it. The pockets on the Tech and Bullet skins are one of the weakest points of the suit -- relatively small, incapable of handling much weight, and difficult to access in thick gloves. Donning a Fusion suit requires a bit of technique, which is easily mastered, but can be a bit frustrating when you are in a hurry. These suits sit at a medium price point, and I believe them to be an extremely good value for money in the dry suit world.

So you can see that each type of suit has positives and negatives, and you have to sit down and ask yourself what's most important to you in a suit. I personally want a suit that's light enough to travel with and dries quickly for packing, and I want a suit that's hard to damage and easy to repair. I absolutely require mobility (cave diving, valve drills) and I don't care very much what the suit looks like, since I look like Miss Piggy in all my insulation, anyway. I don't need the cheapest suit but I don't want to pay premium prices, either. I ended up with two Fusions and recently a Santi, which would normally be out of the price range I am willing to pay, but I got a deal on it. (And I have to say that, if price is no object, they are AWFULLY nice suits!)

 

[swimmer_spe]

Hello everyone,

I stopped by my LDS today and got talking with an employee about what my expectations are for diving in the future. I told him I'd thought about extending it into the Fall, Winter and Spring months. However, since I only have a 7mm, it'd be quite hard. This started a sales pitch on drysuits, mostly a Scubapro Everydry4 and a White's Fusion suit (for under 1k). One is a neoprene suit and the other is a bilam suit. When asking him about the differences he said not much but preference. I do feel like there may be a little bit more to it then that though.

When explaining the SP one, he mentioned how neoprene has good inherent thermal properties, but further reading once I got home showed me this isn't always the case when it is compressed at depth...

So, could anything give me a quick and dirty explanation on Drysuits, such as the difference between neoprene, bilam and trilam suits or Wet vs Dry gloves?

Also, after doing some of my own research, I like the look and some of the features of the Evertec Drysuit, but because I don't have a lot of knowledge on it I figured I'd ask. Finally, one last thing I've been thinking about is one of my OW instructors is looking at selling a Hollis dry suit (no indication on what kind) so I am somewhat interested in that as well (no word on price yet).

Thanks for any advice,

Mitch

Crushed neoprene or not? That really is the question.

As much as I love how cozy warm I am in my crushed neoprene suit, I would rather get a Trilam and have the mobility.

The crushed neoprene does not compress much more at depth.

Rent one of each and see what you like.