Can freediving exercises improve SCUBA?

[freediver]

It still does not make sense to me that static apnea exercises. Not moving.

Will make one better in the amount of air consumed over a period of time while moving on SCUBA.

Perhaps the actual breath hold event won't do much but you have to consider what goes into a static training routine. This would include conditioning toward making the ribcage more flexible, diaphragm conditioning, inducing relaxation, proper ventilation and taking screening inventories while submerged. The apneist would even become more tolerant of any CO2 buildup.
So if we take two identical persons, both entry level divers, and one has static apnea training (routine above) but the other does not.....which would we expect to have the least air consumption?

 

[Tomeck]

Freediving and sucba diving are very different. I don't believe that freediving helps to consume less air, but it helps to feel at ease in water when one learns the scuba.

 

[danvolker]

Perhaps the actual breath hold event won't do much but you have to consider what goes into a static training routine. This would include conditioning toward making the ribcage more flexible, diaphragm conditioning, inducing relaxation, proper ventilation and taking screening inventories while submerged. The apneist would even become more tolerant of any CO2 buildup.
So if we take two identical persons, both entry level divers, and one has static apnea training (routine above) but the other does not.....which would we expect to have the least air consumption?

Actually, a scuba diver does not want more "tolerance" to CO2 buildup. Higher CO2 levels will increase narcosis, causing poor or worse jusdgment and worse motor skills...and no, trying to build a tolerance for narcosis in diving is really bad--like a drunk driver training for big nights by progressively drinking more before driving, each time out

Freediving is one of my passions, and I absoultely believe the motor skills / the physical skills in the water of a freediver offer enormous benefits to scuba divers. I absolutely disagree that a scuba diver should try apnea training for scuba....I do not even know that I would want friends of mine that I got into freediving, to try apnea training for freediving.
Your body has an elaborate mechanism to alert you to dangerously high CO2 levels, which tend to correlate very well with lowering oxygen levels in the blood..For people like me, it makes 60 foot freediving relatively safe, because when I feel the need to breathe, I have plenty of blood oxygen left, and no liklihood of a shallow water blackout on ascent. The apneist on the other hand, could stay down 3 to 5 minutes to my 2 minutes, but any unplanned exertion could cause him a shallow water blackout...I just do not see how apnea training does not cause more problems than it fixes.
Regards,
Dan V

 

[freediver]

Freediving is one of my passions, and I absoultely believe the motor skills / the physical skills in the water of a freediver offer enormous benefits to scuba divers. I absolutely disagree that a scuba diver should try apnea training for scuba....I do not even know that I would want friends of mine that I got into freediving, to try apnea training for freediving.
Your body has an elaborate mechanism to alert you to dangerously high CO2 levels, which tend to correlate very well with lowering oxygen levels in the blood..For people like me, it makes 60 foot freediving relatively safe, because when I feel the need to breathe, I have plenty of blood oxygen left, and no liklihood of a shallow water blackout on ascent. The apneist on the other hand, could stay down 3 to 5 minutes to my 2 minutes, but any unplanned exertion could cause him a shallow water blackout...I just do not see how apnea training does not cause more problems than it fixes.
Regards,
Dan V

Dan, I am sorry that I don't see how this relates to the diver breathing on scuba. My CO2 reference was simply to state that I can tolerate it more, however, the sensitivity of it occuring is refined as well. Still not sure how this relates unless the scuba diver is holding their breath in order to conserve air, this is most certainly what I am not implying.
Subjectively, I have been doing freedive clinics for quite some time and using the principles involved for the scuba divers as well as the lifeguards that I teach and I have been able to observe and note some rather remarkable outcomes based on this training. If someone knows, physiologically, what we are doing to negate our scuba performance then, please, let me know so that I can discontinue my 20 year subjective and experiential observations at once.

 

[danvolker]

Dan, I am sorry that I don't see how this relates to the diver breathing on scuba. My CO2 reference was simply to state that I can tolerate it more, however, the sensitivity of it occuring is refined as well. Still not sure how this relates unless the scuba diver is holding their breath in order to conserve air, this is most certainly what I am not implying.
Subjectively, I have been doing freedive clinics for quite some time and using the principles involved for the scuba divers as well as the lifeguards that I teach and I have been able to observe and note some rather remarkable outcomes based on this training. If someone knows, physiologically, what we are doing to negate our scuba performance then, please, let me know so that I can discontinue my 20 year subjective and experiential observations at once.

For a scuba diver, "tolerating" higher CO2 is not an objective. Doing interval training on a bike, obtaining the best VO2 max possible, as well as best perfusion via neovascularization from intense muscle training, are all things that will directly benefit a scuba diver. Throughout the 90's I was intensely involved in deep, technical diving with the WKPP. We put a huge amount of time into what would help, and what would not. The moment there is a higher CO2 level in a tech diver, something is going very wrong. The better conditioned he/she is from intense cardio training, the better they will rid themselves of the CO2. And keeping CO2 down at low levels is important throughout the dive. Again, tolerating high CO2 will just mean more undesirable narcotic effects.

Just because you teach something, does not mean it is a good thing. I am not prepared to categorize your apnea training the same negative way that I catergorized much of the terribly dangerous tech dive instruction that was being dished out in the 90's....I would argue strongly against this for scuba diving benefit..and I would have liked to get a good discussion on the apnea topic on the Freedive list Mark Barville used to run....there was a time, maybe 7 years ago, when we could have some of the best "real" freedivers in the world weigh in on this. Maybe several hundred. I do not see someone who goes "sledding" or who can hold their breath for ten minutes on the toilet, a "real freediver", from these feats. While this is extremely subjective, I believe most of the freedive list would have agreed that the real freediver is a spearfisherman, that works 40 to 90 foot reefs, is successful in hunting, and who has lots of fun doing this. I know many who were on the freedive list had done some limited apnea practice, but it was usually discussed as a dangerous tool for reaching deeper depths.

Regards,
Dan V

 

[freediver]

Just because you teach something, does not mean it is a good thing.

Unfortunately, all I have are anecdotal observations based on my teaching which, over the years has indicated that this training has been a good thing. Merely an observation from one guy in one place. Nothing more, nothing less.

I am not prepared to categorize your apnea training the same negative way that I catergorized much of the terribly dangerous tech dive instruction that was being dished out in the 90's....I would argue strongly against this for scuba diving benefit..

Dan, here, specifically, is what I would like to know. Based on an earlier post I made that read....

Now if you are referring to static training in-water then I would say that it would be difficult to find a better way to gain comfort in the water than through the most fundamental way. Now through your static training I can only hope that you are training correctly in which you have an additional focus on improving the elasticity of your ribcage, conditioning your diaphragm, breathing properly, learning to induce relaxation and lower anxiety by gaining feedback from your static holds, and how to effectively take a "screening inventory" during the hold, among others.

.......and what I would like to know is why would there NOT be any benefit (or how will it harm) from the above training applied to the diver on scuba? I find no research to support the idea, simply more anecdotal responses from the Deeper Blue forums.

 

[Thalassamania]

Here's some more anecdote:

Early in my diving I fell into a bad skip breathing habit. It was great ... I was THE MAN. No one, I mean no one, could stay down longer on a tank than I could. But I got wicked headaches, on occasion and I did not connect the two. I was getting into deeper diving (and air was what we dove ... that's all there was).

I found that on deeper dives in warm tropical water I was getting much more narced than I was in cold dark swiftly flowing northern waters, but since the dives were controlled more by time and decompression considerations than anything else, I really did not think about air consumption. Then I started diving doubles and air consumption consideration went out the window. I stopped skip breathing. The headaches went away. The southern narcosis lessened. I figured it out and learned the lesson ... don't try and conserve air, carry more. So now I shoot for a SAC rate of about 0.75, I really don't want it to ever be much less than that.

I love to free dive, for me there is little as pleasant as the sound the air makes in my skull as it expands and rushes back into my sinuses on ascent ... I just love it. I still do a series of breathing exercises before I dive, they relax me and help me to focus on the dive through previsualization. They also remind me that if I have problems and need to hold my breath or need to make a free asenct ... I can.

 

[freediver]

Here's some more anecdote:

Early in my diving I fell into a bad skip breathing habit. It was great ... I was THE MAN. No one, I mean no one, could stay down longer on a tank than I could. But I got wicked headaches, on occasion and I did not connect the two. I was getting into deeper diving (and air was what we dove ... that's all there was).

I found that on deeper dives in warm tropical water I was getting much more narced than I was in cold dark swiftly flowing northern waters, but since the dives were controlled more by time and decompression considerations than anything else, I really did not think about air consumption. Then I started diving doubles and air consumption consideration went out the window. I stopped skip breathing. The headaches went away. The southern narcosis lessened. I figured it out and learned the lesson ... don't try and conserve air, carry more. So now I shoot for a SAC rate of about 0.75, I really don't want it to ever be much less than that.

I love to free dive, for me there is little as pleasant as the sound the air makes in my skull as it expands and rushes back into my sinuses on ascent ... I just love it. I still do a series of breathing exercises before I dive, they relax me and help me to focus on the dive through previsualization. They also remind me that if I have problems and need to hold my breath or need to make a free asenct ... I can.

Avid freediver here with my own personal stories and accounts but to keep this from becoming a futile quest for answers, I'll just bow out. Thanks for the discussion guys!

 

[cmburch]

Freediving and scuba diving are very different. I don't believe that freediving helps to consume less air, but it helps to feel at ease in water when one learns the scuba.

It depends. California we are not allowed to use SCUBA for Abalone. And some sport fish are afraid of the noise from SCUBA, so you would never see on SCUBA.

You may be right that freediving may help in the comfort level for when on SCUBA.

My gear is the same for Freediving minus the Tank/Rig. I can freedive in rougher lower visibility conditions that I would normally not attempt or abort on SCUBA.

Since I am swimming, freediving, hiking more when freediving; the cardiovascular and workout activity will definitely help my SCUBA. I also swim 1.5-2 miles a few evenings a week at a local Jr. College which also helps freediving and SCUBA diving.

 

[spectrum]

Got into freediving recently. Been using the static apnea training tables to help improve. Just curious though, can doing breath holding excersizes using the apnea tables improve your air consumption rate for SCUBA? or is there no correlation?

Yes and no, but it takes you someplace good.

Apnea tolerance is not what scuba diving is about. However Scuba diving is all about proper ventilation of the lungs and being comfortable in the water. With relaxation and good ventilation the hyperbaric state of diving will slow your respiration and when it all comes together results in a very desirable air usage rate. If you are using a snorkel as part of your activities so much the better. More rambling here.

Pete