Can a certified cave diver escort a non cave diver

[Cthippo]

Does infringing on someones rights include the rights of the recovery team members that get called and asked to drop whatever they were doing to go pull a dead person out of a cave? I've been called and asked to do that a few times, it's never a pleasant task.

I'd argue that your rights to go diving in any site at any time without adequate training end where the rights of the all volunteer recovery team begin, especially when history shows that people that lack training for that particular environment have a high fatality rate.

Going to push back hard on this one.

Full disclosure, I am not a cave diver, but I am a firefigter / EMT and so deal with a fair few dead people. The people who choose to do this kind of work, whether volunteer or paid, know what we are getting into and choose to take part in it. They are there because they choose to be there.

As a responder, it is 100% not my place to judge you or how yoy got in the situation you are in. I am there to help. Period. I would expect the same from any other responder anywhere in the world. When we start judging those we serve, bad things happen.

I absolutely respect thw right of others to donthings that may get them killed, and expect the same in return. Everyone dies, and everyone gets to decided what is risking their one life on.

 

[kensuf]

Going to push back hard on this one.

Full disclosure, I am not a cave diver, but I am a firefigter / EMT and so deal with a fair few dead people. The people who choose to do this kind of work, whether volunteer or paid, know what we are getting into and choose to take part in it. They are there because they choose to be there.

As a responder, it is 100% not my place to judge you or how yoy got in the situation you are in. I am there to help. Period. I would expect the same from any other responder anywhere in the world. When we start judging those we serve, bad things happen.

I absolutely respect thw right of others to donthings that may get them killed, and expect the same in return. Everyone dies, and everyone gets to decided what is risking their one life on.

And I'll push back again. Regular firefighters/emt's lack the cave diving training necessary to retrieve a corpse from a cave, so it falls to volunteer cave divers. Unlike full time firefighters, I'm just some random dude that has a unique skill set and training.

The times I responded to the calls, it was about bringing closure to the families and I am glad I was able to help the families of the deceased. But to be honest, I would have rather stayed at work or continued to enjoy a nice quiet evening at home with my wife than pull a body out of a water filled hole in the ground.

 

[Tigerpaw]

Thanks for the replies they have been helpful and entertaining. I used the wrong term, I shouldn't said legal, ........acceptable would have been more suitable. At any rate I will come back and post how my dives went for that day. Until then, I'm off to rec dive!!!

 

[rddvet]

Going to push back hard on this one.

Full disclosure, I am not a cave diver, but I am a firefigter / EMT and so deal with a fair few dead people. The people who choose to do this kind of work, whether volunteer or paid, know what we are getting into and choose to take part in it. They are there because they choose to be there.

As a responder, it is 100% not my place to judge you or how yoy got in the situation you are in. I am there to help. Period. I would expect the same from any other responder anywhere in the world. When we start judging those we serve, bad things happen.

I absolutely respect thw right of others to donthings that may get them killed, and expect the same in return. Everyone dies, and everyone gets to decided what is risking their one life on.

That is not an apples to apples comparison. You are PAID (I assume since you didn’t say you’re a volunteer) to do these things. The recovery team is doing this out of care for the cave diving and general diving community. Remember pretty much anybody can become a firefighter, emt, cop. Please no one be offended by that. I work directly with police fire and military personnel who repeatedly joke “it’s not that tough to get the job, but it’s a hard job to do.” People like Ken are not trained to deal with dead bodies. They’re not trained to deal with the mental anguish it creates. They don’t get mental health care for free from the iucrr or nss-cds for doing this. Cops and firefighters do. There are many stories of cops, emts, and firefighters responded to their own family member or friend’s emergency, but it’s very rare. In cave recovery there is a very good chance you’ll be dragging the dead body of someone you’ve known for years out of a cave in a bag you risked your life to stuff them into.
On top of that, cave recovery is not something cops, emt, or firefighters can do. Therefore the cave community and cave instructors have to volunteer because often times there is nobody else who can return your friend’s body to their family.
So I get what you’re saying but you’re way off base.
I’m also going to get flack for this but don’t give a damn. People who have no idea about cave diving should probably just sit back and shut up rather than commenting on things they don’t know. I can’t ice dive and don’t know all of the perils. If someone dies ice diving and there’s a thread on it, I’ll read it but I’ll shut up otherwise unless I have some relevant comment based on my personal experience and training. I don’t do any deep trimix diving (significant hypoxic range). So I just shut up and don’t comment. Maybe more people should subscribe to that and allow better discussions.

Just because you have had to deal with death in your JOB doesn’t equate to understanding what it’s like to drag a body 2000 feet through a cave with minimal to zero training and zero post-incident mental health assistance. The only people recovery team divers can discuss their grief with is either the other recovery divers, their families, or a therapist they pay out of their own pocket.

 

[Celt]

That is not an apples to apples comparison. You are PAID (I assume since you didn’t say you’re a volunteer) to do these things. The recovery team is doing this out of care for the cave diving and general diving community. Remember pretty much anybody can become a firefighter, emt, cop. Please no one be offended by that. I work directly with police fire and military personnel who repeatedly joke “it’s not that tough to get the job, but it’s a hard job to do.” People like Ken are not trained to deal with dead bodies. They’re not trained to deal with the mental anguish it creates. They don’t get mental health care for free from the iucrr or nss-cds for doing this. Cops and firefighters do. There are many stories of cops, emts, and firefighters responded to their own family member or friend’s emergency, but it’s very rare. In cave recovery there is a very good chance you’ll be dragging the dead body of someone you’ve known for years out of a cave in a bag you risked your life to stuff them into.
On top of that, cave recovery is not something cops, emt, or firefighters can do. Therefore the cave community and cave instructors have to volunteer because often times there is nobody else who can return your friend’s body to their family.
So I get what you’re saying but you’re way off base.
I’m also going to get flack for this but don’t give a damn. People who have no idea about cave diving should probably just sit back and shut up rather than commenting on things they don’t know. I can’t ice dive and don’t know all of the perils. If someone dies ice diving and there’s a thread on it, I’ll read it but I’ll shut up otherwise unless I have some relevant comment based on my personal experience and training. I don’t do any deep trimix diving (significant hypoxic range). So I just shut up and don’t comment. Maybe more people should subscribe to that and allow better discussions.

Just because you have had to deal with death in your JOB doesn’t equate to understanding what it’s like to drag a body 2000 feet through a cave with minimal to zero training and zero post-incident mental health assistance. The only people recovery team divers can discuss their grief with is either the other recovery divers, their families, or a therapist they pay out of their own pocket.

If you can’t deal with it, stay at home, it’s voluntary. The last person you want on a recovery is a judgemental whinger.

 

[MaxAir]

Going to push back hard on this one.

Full disclosure, I am not a cave diver, but I am a firefigter / EMT and so deal with a fair few dead people. The people who choose to do this kind of work, whether volunteer or paid, know what we are getting into and choose to take part in it. They are there because they choose to be there.

As a responder, it is 100% not my place to judge you or how yoy got in the situation you are in. I am there to help. Period. I would expect the same from any other responder anywhere in the world. When we start judging those we serve, bad things happen.

I absolutely respect thw right of others to donthings that may get them killed, and expect the same in return. Everyone dies, and everyone gets to decided what is risking their one life on.

Working as a firefighter, do you think most people in fires choose to be there, maybe starting the fire and sitting waiting for you to show up? I bet after awhile, firefighter attitudes would get more reluctant rescuing those self inflicted cases, but I do not know because I am not a firefighter (hint for where this is going)...

As a non-cave diver, you obviously do not understand the cave diving community and long established code of conduct founded in order to put a lid on under educated public heading to their deaths.

 

[tursiops]

Thanks for the replies they have been helpful and entertaining. I used the wrong term, I shouldn't said legal, ........acceptable would have been more suitable. At any rate I will come back and post how my dives went for that day. Until then, I'm off to rec dive!!!

Also, your thread title does not say the dive leader is an instructor, only that he is cave certified. That has led to some confusion and angst.

 

[Cthippo]

Working as a firefighter, do you think most people in fires choose to be there, maybe starting the fire and sitting waiting for you to show up? I bet after awhile, firefighter attitudes would get more reluctant rescuing those self inflicted cases, but I do not know because I am not a firefighter (hint for where this is going)...

As a non-cave diver, you obviously do not understand the cave diving community and long established code of conduct founded in order to put a lid on under educated public heading to

Short answer is it doesn't matter. You call, we haul, no matter what. If a fire is suspicious then it's the fire marshall's problem, and has no bearing on how we respond. If doing the job, paid or volunteer, is starting to affect how you feel about it, then it is time to take a break.

 

[boulderjohn]

For those who don't know much about removing bodies from a cave....

Edd Sorenson has done more than a few such recoveries. Because of what he has learned, he has constructed two harness systems, one for removing a body head first, and one for removing a body feet first. A key factor is the head, which will often fall off during the recovery.

A few years ago he and Mike Young recovered two bodies of OW divers who had gotten stuck and died deep inside a cave in the Dominican Republic. Local divers had tried to do the recovery but were unable to do so, and a long time passed before Edd and Mike were asked to help. I interviewed both about it on behalf of the NSS, and their accounts were amazing. Both bodies were bloated to the point that they were pinned to the ceiling, and they had to drape an enormous amount of weight over the bodies to pull them out. The tunnels were barely big enough for the bodies, and pulling them out took enormous effort, pulling on the harness and dragging the body an inch at a time. Edd did the pulling, with Mike at his feet, guiding him and trying to widen the pathway. When the effort required created a serious CO2 buildup, he had to lie still for extended periods of time to allow his rebreather scrubber to clear out the CO2.

That's the short version.

So that's what happens when unpaid volunteers recover the bodies of OW divers who decide they have the right and the ability to explore the deep resources of a cave.

 

[rddvet]

If you can’t deal with it, stay at home, it’s voluntary. The last person you want on a recovery is a judgemental whinger.

Cool. Expect nothing more from you. Fits with your typical posts. I forgot you're perfect and know everything. Thank you for the reminder to put you back on my ignore list.
Would you like to give us your thoughts on your personal experience of dragging a bloated dead body of someone you know from the depths, and in particular from a cave. I'd love to hear how you dealt with it both physically an emotionally. I'm sure we can all learn from it.
One benefit to being such a tough guy like you is those big balls of yours keep you from having to wear lead.
Gotta love when people want to throw stuff around like insinuating someone taking part in a recovery is a whiner (or whinger as you UK guys say).