California Commercial Dive Boat Discharge

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I think some of you are mis-understanding the issue. I'm not grossed out that it happens off shore or within the limits of the regulations set by the state. I don't really care if people choose to urinate in their own wet suit. The point is we are on a dive boat, where most crews pride themselves on customer service, good food and their knowledge of the dive sites to provide the best experience possible.

Shooting (even a dliuted) turd and a cloud of toilet paper at my mask after I giant stride and come back to the surface and give the ok sign, just isn't cool and it's a health hazard. Maybe it is the age of the boat and its configuration. I'm certainly not looking to trash talk the boat and the operators as other than that, the experience was top notch.
 
I find it funny that some of the same people grossed out about a boat discharging sewage overboard at a dive site also say they pee in their wetsuits.

Um...it ain't the pee. It's the poo. And it's the idea that it might be squirted in my face as I'm trying to get to the swim step. Maybe that doesn't bother you...but it definitely bothers me.

I think some of you are mis-understanding the issue. I'm not grossed out that it happens off shore or within the limits of the regulations set by the state. I don't really care if people choose to urinate in their own wet suit. The point is we are on a dive boat, where most crews pride themselves on customer service, good food and their knowledge of the dive sites to provide the best experience possible.

Shooting (even a dliuted) turd and a cloud of toilet paper at my mask after I giant stride and come back to the surface and give the ok sign, just isn't cool and it's a health hazard.

Yeah. What he said.
 
I think some of you are mis-understanding the issue. I'm not grossed out that it happens off shore or within the limits of the regulations set by the state. I don't really care if people choose to urinate in their own wet suit. The point is we are on a dive boat, where most crews pride themselves on customer service, good food and their knowledge of the dive sites to provide the best experience possible.

Shooting (even a dliuted) turd and a cloud of toilet paper at my mask after I giant stride and come back to the surface and give the ok sign, just isn't cool and it's a health hazard. Maybe it is the age of the boat and its configuration. I'm certainly not looking to trash talk the boat and the operators as other than that, the experience was top notch.

As you've intimated - some boats don't have that much in terms of holding capacity. If given an opportunity they may need to discharge, or save a few bucks by putting it out at the limit areas. If the service was good - it probably wouldn't hurt to let them know that it grossed* you out and that perhaps there were better places to discharge...like when they are underway, or past the 3 mile mark.

* what grossed you out probably grossed out a whole lot of other folks who don't speak out, but care?
 
Mr. X

100% agree regarding communicating with the operators. I am already planning to contact them. As stated, it was a great trip after all and if they take the feedback seriously, it will make for an even better experience next time. If they don't take the feedback, there are other boats out there.
 
By one of those astonishing coincidences that sometimes occur in life, I happen to be going out on this boat on Saturday. (I twisted ekoast's arm in PMs until he told me!) :D This is about the only SoCal boat I haven't been on before, which is one of the reasons we booked it - we figured it was time we checked it out. I'm happy to hear that the service was great overall, other than the poo-on-the-head issue. I will be checking out the sitch on Saturday, and will bring it to their attention if it appears to be a problem. I'll report back here on Sunday.
 
As an update, I emailed the Captain of the dive boat and I received a response this morning. My letter was well received and he stated that it was an oversight. That the crew is responsible for turning off the pumps to the heads while on the dive site. Although, he said he takes full responsibility for everything that happens on the boat. He further stated that he would print my letter and make each of his crew read it so that the same mistake is not made in the future.

I am very happy that the feedback was received well and that the problem will be corrected. If anyone else is on a dive boat and sees this happening, please speak up. If the operators value thier clients' input, they will make the change. If not, there are other boats that care enough to do the right thing.

Eric
 
As an update, I emailed the Captain of the dive boat and I received a response this morning. My letter was well received and he stated that it was an oversight. That the crew is responsible for turning off the pumps to the heads while on the dive site. Although, he said he takes full responsibility for everything that happens on the boat. He further stated that he would print my letter and make each of his crew read it so that the same mistake is not made in the future.

I am very happy that the feedback was received well and that the problem will be corrected. If anyone else is on a dive boat and sees this happening, please speak up. If the operators value thier clients' input, they will make the change. If not, there are other boats that care enough to do the right thing.

Eric

It's good that they said "sorry".... however, the bigger issue is that they broke a law, have an illegal sewage system, and "turning it off" is simply not the answer. They need to bring their boat into compliance with the law and if they refuse to do so then someone should report them to the US Coast Guard. USCG will happily and cheerfully go out, inspect, and cite the boat and master (Captain).

As for age... there is no exemption for age. If you have a boat with a marine head it must meet the regs (law). Period, end of discussion. In theory they might exempt you if it was the original head in the original boat with no modifications or upgrades. Reality is that marine heads are pretty finicky and need to be replaced regulary. I have a 1964 Tartan 27 Sailboat and I have to meet the regs. I've got one of the older boats on the water. Amusingly, my boat came to Texas from Catalina Island and they had a composting toilet in it when I got it.... indicating that yes, enforcement is done in Cali.

The right solution for them is:
- At a very minimum install holding tanks and macerators to grind up and discharge sewage during the appropriate times while offshore (more than 3 miles).

- Install a sewage tank, macerator (if needed) and pumpout fitting and capture and pump all sewage for treatment at a municipal sewage facility. Most marinas have a pumpout facility to accomodate the removal of sewage from commercial and recreational vessels. This option may not be practical for a boat that is at sea for more than a day or two at a time.
 
How do you know that they "broke a law"? Are you a Coast Guard inspector?

These boats get inspected by the Coast Guards often, and if they were not in compliance, don't you think that the Coast Guard would have fined or forbidded them from conducting operation?

It's good that they said "sorry".... however, the bigger issue is that they broke a law, have an illegal sewage system, and "turning it off" is simply not the answer. They need to bring their boat into compliance with the law and if they refuse to do so then someone should report them to the US Coast Guard. USCG will happily and cheerfully go out, inspect, and cite the boat and master (Captain).

As for age... there is no exemption for age. If you have a boat with a marine head it must meet the regs (law). Period, end of discussion. In theory they might exempt you if it was the original head in the original boat with no modifications or upgrades. Reality is that marine heads are pretty finicky and need to be replaced regulary. I have a 1964 Tartan 27 Sailboat and I have to meet the regs. I've got one of the older boats on the water. Amusingly, my boat came to Texas from Catalina Island and they had a composting toilet in it when I got it.... indicating that yes, enforcement is done in Cali.

The right solution for them is:
- At a very minimum install holding tanks and macerators to grind up and discharge sewage during the appropriate times while offshore (more than 3 miles).

- Install a sewage tank, macerator (if needed) and pumpout fitting and capture and pump all sewage for treatment at a municipal sewage facility. Most marinas have a pumpout facility to accomodate the removal of sewage from commercial and recreational vessels. This option may not be practical for a boat that is at sea for more than a day or two at a time.
 
How do you know that they "broke a law"? Are you a Coast Guard inspector?

These boats get inspected by the Coast Guards often, and if they were not in compliance, don't you think that the Coast Guard would have fined or forbidded them from conducting operation?

It's against the law to discharge sewage inside the 3 mile limit. The OP clearly stated that they did discharge sewage on a mooring within 3 miles of shore.

Having a MSD (Marine Sanitation Device aka toilet) that has continuous flow is certainly not within the standards. I've not heard of any such thing in my studies of the issue.

For what it's worth, No I'm not a CG employee. I do however volunteer on the Boater Waste Committee for the non-profit advocacy organization in our area. Boater Waste is a nice way of saying sewage discharge. I also own two boats, one sail, and one power. I studied the regulations and saw no mention of continuous discharge.

Regs state very clearly that vessels must have holding tanks and the OBD (overboard) discharge valve must be locked out with a physical lock.

Google:
Even in 1979 it was against the law:
Sarasota Herald-Tribune - Google News Archive Search

From the EPA:
How can citizens help reduce pollution from vessel marine sanitation devices?

•Marina owners and operators should understand and provide information to boaters that improper vessel discharges of sewage can result in beach closures, shellfish contamination, and loss of recreational opportunities;
•Boaters and other citizens should be encouraged to read the information and to participate in activities that support a clean and healthy aquatic environment;
•Marina owners and operators should provide clean and safe on-shore sanitary restroom facilities for boaters, and maintain adequate pumpout and dump facilities and encourage their use;
•Boaters should be encouraged to install and use a Coast Guard-certified Marine Sanitation Device (MSD) appropriate for their vessel and the type of waterbody where the vessel will be operated (information on MSDs is available at Ocean Regulatory Programs | Oceans, Coasts, & Estuaries | US EPA and they should also be encouraged to learn how to use and maintain their MSDs properly, and to learn how to use marina pumpout stations for Type III MSDs; and;
•Citizens should report violations of the MSD program to their local Coast Guard station (listed in the telephone book or located at U. S. Coast Guard Home Page)

(note the last one)

Legal Citation: (for those that still don't think this is real or serious... )
Is the discharge of untreated vessel sewage legal?

Clean Water Act Section 312 requires the use of marine sanitation devices (MSDs), on-board equipment for treating and discharging or storing sewage, on all commercial and recreational vessels that are equipped with installed toilets. The statute does not apply to vessels with portable toilets ("porta-potties") nor any other on-board portable sewage reception system; gray water from bath or kitchen sinks; nor does it apply to vessels beyond the three-mile limit of U.S. territorial waters. The discharge of untreated (as well as treated) sewage is prohibited in State waters that have been designated as no-discharge zones for vessel sewage, as well as in waters that have specific provisions that address vessel sewage.

California's predictable stance on this issue:
http://www.foe.org/sites/default/files/CA_Del_to_EPA_on_CA_NDZ.pdf

They want the ENTIRE state declared a NDZ, which is honestly not unreasonable. Now, the NDZ request talks about large ships... but the reality is that a NO Discharge Zone is exactly that... and it applies equally to all vessels.

According to the USCG: USCG Systems Engineering Division (CG-5213)

Vessel Operators: No person may operate any Vessel having an installed toilet facility unless it is equipped with an installed and operable MSD of a type approved by the U.S. Coast Guard to meet the requirements of 33 CFR Part 159.

Approved MSDs: There are three different types of MSDs that can be certified by the U.S. Coast Guard to meet the requirements in 33 CFR Part 159, each having its own design, certification, and discharge criteria. For more information see 33 CFR 159.53.

•Type I is a flow through discharge device that produces effluent having a fecal coliform bacteria count not greater than 1,000 per 100 milliliters and no visible floating solids. This type of device is typically a physical/chemical based system that relies on maceration and chlorination. Type I MSDs are issued a Certificate of Approval.
•Type II is a flow through discharge device that produces effluent having a fecal coliform bacteria count not greater than 200 per 100 milliliters and suspended solids not greater than 150 milligrams per liter. This type of device is typically a biological or aerobic digestion based system.
•Type III is a device that prevents the overboard discharge of treated or untreated sewage or any waste derived from sewage. This type of device is typically a holding tank and may include other types of technology including incineration, recirculation, and composting.

Inspected Vessels: In addition to the MSD requirements in 33 CFR Part 159, inspected vessels must also comply with the marine engineering regulations in 46 CFR Subchapter F and the marine electrical regulations in 46 CFR Subchapter J. The U.S. Coast Guard Certificate of Approval and device label will both indicate inspected vessel for those devices that meet these additional requirements and therefore are suitable for installation onboard inspected vessels. For more information see 33 CFR 159.97.


The first part is pretty damning and sums it up nicely. "NO PERSON MAY OPERATE any vessell unless it has an approved MSD"

Moving further down.....
Illegal discharge.
Effluent discharged from a vessel that does not meet EPA's published standard subjects the vessel owner or operator to civil penalty of up to $2,000 for each violation under section 1322(j) of the Act. Strict adherence to all of the manufacturer's operating instructions may be taken into consideration when determining the gravity of the violation. The device itself may be investigated to determine why is was not capable of meeting EPA's effluent standard and, in this case, the manufacturer may be in violation of section 312(g)(1) of the Act which requires that all MSDs be "...in all material respects substantially the same as a test device certified under this subsection." The maximum penalty for each violation of this subsection is $5,000. For more information see 33 U.S.C. 1322(j). If you witness a vessel discharging raw or untreated sewage inside U.S. waters or if you see a visible floating solid in the wastestream then you are encouraged to report it to your nearest Coast Guard office or to the National Response Center 24-hours a day.

NDZ's
No discharge zone.
While operating a vessel in an EPA designated no discharge zone, flow-through devices are only permitted if adequately secured to prevent discharges of all treated and untreated sewage. For example, closing the seacock and padlocking, using a non-releasable wire tie, or removing the seacock handle are considered to be sufficient in most cases. For short voyages, locking the door to the head with a padlock or a door handle key lock is another acceptable method. For vessels that routinely operate in no discharge zones a Type III MSD is recommended. For more information see 33 CFR 159.7 and 40 CFR Part 140.

Legal Basis - calls this specific type of installation out
Legal basis.
Section 312 of the Clean Water Act, which is also known as the Federal Water Pollution Control Act of 1956, requires a certified operable MSD on every vessel with an installed toilet to prevent the discharge of untreated or inadequately treated sewage into U.S. waters. It is illegal for vessels having an installed toilet but no MSD to discharge sewage. Section 312(g)(2) of the Act directs the Coast Guard to certify MSDs. For more information see 33 U.S.C. 1322, et. seq.


Lastly, sure they probably have a Certificate of Approval.... the Coasties aren't perfect... there aren't very many of them and they have a lot of boats to watch... so it's possible that the inspector didn't see it or asked and was lied to about a holding tank. The only reason to directly discharge is to avoid pumpout costs which are miniscule. Btw, pumpout facilities are somewhat expensive to install and maintain. Think of a contiuous operation shop vac for sewage.
 
Just to close the loop on this one - we were on the boat in question on Saturday. The heads were not continuously running when we were at the dock, but it appears someone turned them on to run continuously during the channel crossing, when we were at least 3 miles offshore. Once we reached the island, someone must have flipped the switch/valve off again, because the heads were no longer running, and I saw no effluent flowing out from either side of the boat. And this was a full boat - the heads were in heavy use during the many hours we were at the island. I did not see them running continously again until the return crossing.

This makes it pretty darn obvious that they have a holding tank. Clearly, when you have heads that can be flushed, the contents must go SOMEwhere...and they were NOT going overboard.

It sounds to me as if the captain was telliing the truth - an error was made during Eric's trip. None of us can say how often this error was made in the past, but the bottom line is that it was brought to the captain's attention, and the very next weekend it was no longer happening.

I would not hesitate to dive this boat again.
 

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