Buying my first BCD - read a lot on SB, looking for advice/opinions

[qubus]

Hi all

"Oh no, another repeat of THAT topic" some of you may think. And yeah, there will be some of that, I'm sure. Before I start I want you to know that I DID take a lot of time to read through many, MANY threads and opinions and have a general understanding of what the consensus on SB about PB/W seems to be.

First, my/our type:
My wife and I are relatively new divers with about 50 dives. We did OW, AOW, Drift, PPB, Rescue and a few more specialties as we want to learn and perfect our diving but also reduce the risk by expanding our experience.
We've been diving for about 4 years now and the following words summarize our type: recreational, vacation, warm water, single-tank, no-deco, travel. Our fascination is with tropical reefs and fish and we don't (currently) aspire to do any technical diving, so our gear does not have to meet any requirements like double-tank, DIR, etc. (I don't mind if it does, but it's not a requirement).
Until now, we have always dived on rented BCDs which were unfortunately always jacket-style and more often than not didn't fit well, moved around, etc. Still, we always made it work.
We often receive very positive comments/feedback on our diving styles from other experienced divers and instructors.

We both dive with 5mm full wetsuits in tropical waters and usually were given AL80 tanks. With those, we both usually need about 14-16# of lead with the rental jacket-style BCDs in salt water.

Situation:
Over the years, we have acquired pieces of gear one by one based on our experiences: ABC, dive computer, 5mm wetsuit, new fins, and recently our own regulators + octopus. Generally I rather buy high quality (sometimes more expensive) once than have to replace. So far we've been very happy with all our choices.
We're now planning to go on a long trip sometime next year during which we will do around 50+ dives over a period of a few months.

Because of that, we now plan to purchase BCDs to avoid having to rent but most importantly, to have something that fits. My problem is that so far, I have not been able to find a proper place to try out different BCDs. We could only rent jacket styles. I've therefore given up on trying as many as possible (as some SB members suggest) and making a choice based on that. I also believe that any new equipment takes some getting used to. Spending 30min in a pool might not be much help. I may be wrong: I currently live in NYC, please PM me if you know a place I could try a discussed BCD out in the pool.

Our thoughts on requirements for our BCDs in no specific order (feel free to comment):

• No jacket-style i.e. it should be a back inflate - I was able to try a BP/W in a pool once but it was absolutely not adjusted to me so that experience doesn't count. Both of us tried a dry BP/W on at an LDS (who was very much promoting them) but again, it wasn't an experience I would not base a decision on (neither positive nor negative).
• It should be travel friendly - We will always travel with the BCD and rarely (if ever) use it locally. This doesn't mean it has to be the lightest possible, but a 10# SS BP, despite having other benefits, would not fit this requirement. It should be reasonably packable into a suitcase along with our other equipment and non-diving things.
• It should be comfortable, fit well, be adjustable - We usually have to put some weights on the cylinder band to improve our trim. Therefore trim pockets or other means of placing weight somewhere other than hip should be possible (without taking the whole thing apart). Also, both of us are rather slim (I'm 5'11'' and 152# and often had to use an Small BCD), my wife is shorter but also very slim (usually XS, if they had that). The BCDs should fit, if possible, a women well.
  
• Integrated weights - We don't want to use weight belts for various reasons. There should be some sort of pockets for the weights. We'll be traveling with it so should be easy to replace them.
• Attachment point yes, pockets not necessary - We'll have thigh pockets on our wetsuits for small things. Other than that we'll have a DSMB with small finger spool which should be somehow attachable somewhere. We don't carry much else other than the essentials (Trilobyte, can't think of anything else). From time-to-time I take a Gopro with a handle.
• Serviceability & warranty - Naturally, we'd like it to last. We move around quite a bit and therefore don't have a long-term relationship to an LDS. Right now we're in North America but that could change in a few years. Warranty should be international or parts should be replaceable.
• Price 700 US - I'm not going to give the price an adjective like "reasonable" as that's subjective. As you'll see below, my primary pick now is the Scubapro Hydros Pro which I can get for approx. 700USD (including taxes). Any complete BCD including everything (weight pockets, D-rings, ..., taxes) will be compared against that.

OK, getting too long here...

The contenders that I'm thinking about or have read about are the following:

Scubapro Hydros Pro

• It seems to have everything I'm looking for: Wing-style, reasonable to travel with, good fit (has many sizes, womens and mens), trim pockets, integrated weights, parts are replaceable. I also like that based on the materials used, it should dry fast.
  
• I read much about it on SB (thanks @stuartv for the many, incredibly long posts!) and understand that the general consensus is that it's overpriced, that the shoulder straps have been prone to breakage and there have been 2-3 revisions of it, that some even prefer it to BP/W styles due to it's comfort.
• I'm curious to hear about how Scubapro handles warranty. I read that it's only done through the original seller. If I would buy it here in NYC and then, say, move to Sidney, would an authorized retailer there be able to process a warranty claim (like if a strap broke)?

BP/W general thoughts:
I understand many (if not most) here prefer a BP/W style. My thoughts/worries with that are:

• It will be uncomfortable for my wife as she's small and slim, same applies to me. I understand there's not much choice in BP sizes.
  
• Since we will be diving on the go with them at the beginning, we might not have the help/experts around to set it up correctly. I read somewhere on SB that the shoulder straps should not be too tight and there's a few youtube clips on how to set it up. Still, I imagine us finally arriving on a beautiful lonely atoll, we want to go diving and just get frustrated because we have to spend a day figuring out how to set the thing up correctly, figure out trim...
• I do understand that the benefit is if something breaks, you can replace it individually and usually cheaply (without sacrificing quality).
• This is totally subjective, but I feel like BP/W seems like a fancy bike with suspension front and back, tires that grip on any surface, and frame with adjustable geometry to fit any road type from downhill to smooth road when a simple fixie with one break would fit my needs just as well. Not a perfect analogy but the bike is superior to the fixie in many ways (and may even cost less) but you first need to assemble it, set it up right and figure out how to use it correctly. What can I do/what can you tell me to overcome that feeling?
• I'm also a bit confused on what is needed for a full BP/W setup. I get the basics: Backplate, Wing (Donut), Webbing, Weight Pockets, D-Rings, Tank Band(s). But I also read of H-harnesses, Hogartian/DIR (not sure what the difference to other setups is), one-strap setups (I think the DIR belongs to those). Where would I start there?

BP/W bundles/manufacturers that were suggested on SB:

Dive Gear Express Bundle

• Many suggest the DGX bundle for 299 (w/o taxes)
• I understand that's just the base and we would have to add things like the weight pockets. If I do this on the page I get about 420USD (w/o taxes).
• Not sure what else would be required in a rig like this to complete it?
• What's the catch with this one?

Freedom Contour BP

• Many seem to think this hand-crafted backplate created by a SB member seems to be the ultimate in BP comfort.
• Since comfort is important to us (ok... who doesn't like comfort?) this could be an option, especially as I understand they are made in various sizes that also fit smaller females well.
• Assuming it were available, how much would it cost (I think I saw around 225USD) and what else would be required to complete a full BCD kit (including weight pockets, etc.)?

Deep Sea Supply

• Many on SB seem to suggest Deep Sea Supply (DSS) rigs. As they are currently not available or out-of-business, I'm not considering them at this time.

Xdeep

• More of an honorary mention as someone suggested Xdeep. At probably more than 700USD (including taxes) for the full rig including weight pockets there would have to be a good reason to go for it.
• Their marketing material sounds good though.

Final thoughts:
First of all: sorry, it got king of long. Thanks for reading my whole post though!
I kind of want to like a BP/W setup but I feel drawn to the simplicity of just getting the SP Hydros and having it all there, adjustable and all. Then again, being able to getting 2 BP/W setups for the price of one SP Hydros is a strong argument.

 

[dmaziuk]

Do you (both) like to tinker with your gear and customize and adjust it to perfection? -- That I think is the biggest selling point of a BP&W for strictly warm-water vacation diving.

Eric's plate + Vintage Double Hose wing would be around $500, plus 2x cambands, webbing and assorted d-rings and triglides will get you close to $700. DGX bundle is less than half that, and any of the zeagles (ET, scout, etc.) will cost around half of that too.

Travel friendly: I can fit all my gear into a carry-on, but that leaves no room for change of clothes. And we still need a checked bag for sharp and otherwise TSA-unfriendly stuff. I've come to the conclusion that saving a couple of pounds on Al plate through few hours of plane changes (provided I don't put it in checked bag in the first place) vs. having to have extra 4 lbs of lead on every dive, is not much of a trade-off either way.

 

[stuartv]

Thanks for the shout-out.

You said a 10# SS BP would not work for you. Well, I think any SS BP (Freedom Plate, DGX, or any other) is going to weigh that much or more when you include the harness, tank straps, D-rings, etc..

Going with AL plate would knock off maybe 3 or 4 pounds. But, I don't know of any AL plates that you'd be able to find in smaller sizes - which you and your wife may or may not need.

I DO think that most people (including myself) take some time to really dial in a BP/W rig and get it to where it works well for them. Having someone experienced to help/mentor that process in person can also be really useful. As you said you would need to be diving it on the go from the very beginning, I think you could very easily experience the frustration you described. For anyone planning to use a BP/W rig for the first time, I would say they would be doing themselves a favor if they allocated 1 or 2 pool sessions to trying it and adjusting it before they go off to do real dives with one. Not that you can't get it reasonably close on the first go and still enjoy every dive, even if you do get out thinking "okay, I'm going to change XZY before the next dive."

So, the only thing I can say about your choice, really, is if I were making that same choice, I would rule out all the other BPs and only be debating between the Freedom Contour and the Hydros. To me, the Freedom plate is well worth the extra it would cost over something like the DGX plate. I do know that @Eric Sedletzky makes them in different sizes, but I have a suspicion that he is completely out of stock right now. To a question you asked, the Freedom plate would require the same "extras" as any other BP - wing, harness, tank straps, etc..

 

[dulinor]

If you just want it to work - I recently did a 26 dive liveaboard trip with a new Hydros Pro and was thrilled. Quality is there, packability is there, it just ticks the boxes (except price.)

Nothing against the BP/W - but for warm water may be overkill.

 

[qubus]

Do you (both) like to tinker with your gear and customize and adjust it to perfection? -- That I think is the biggest selling point of a BP&W for strictly warm-water vacation diving.

Hi, that's an excellent question and I think I somewhat hinted at this throughout my post. I'd say that we both are perfectionists that like it optimal, however, I would say that I like to tinker more while my significant other leaves the choices of gear more up to me and would like to concentrate more on the actual diving. Given rather high stress levels in our daily jobs, I have to admit that we sometimes have low thresholds for frustration in our free time

Eric's plate + Vintage Double Hose wing would be around $500, plus 2x cambands, webbing and assorted d-rings and triglides will get you close to $700. DGX bundle is less than half that, and any of the zeagles (ET, scout, etc.) will cost around half of that too.

I've seen the Vintage Double Hose rigs mentioned multiple times. Not sure I understand what I should look for there. We have normal Apeks regulators/octopus rigs with Din connectors. I assume you're referring to the Argonaut Wings that are sold there.

Travel friendly: I can fit all my gear into a carry-on, but that leaves no room for change of clothes. And we still need a checked bag for sharp and otherwise TSA-unfriendly stuff. I've come to the conclusion that saving a couple of pounds on Al plate through few hours of plane changes (provided I don't put it in checked bag in the first place) vs. having to have extra 4 lbs of lead on every dive, is not much of a trade-off either way.

That's impressive! We have 5mm Waterproof suits and I don't see those things fitting into a carry on. I was impressed how in one of the videos, the Scubapro rep fit everything in that backpack INCLUDING a 5mm suit. I don't see that being realistic with ours.

 

[qubus]

Thanks for the shout-out.

Haha, thank YOU. I think most of my opinion on the Hydros was shaped by your posts!

You said a 10# SS BP would not work for you. Well, I think any SS BP (Freedom Plate, DGX, or any other) is going to weigh that much or more when you include the harness, tank straps, D-rings, etc..

Going with AL plate would knock off maybe 3 or 4 pounds. But, I don't know of any AL plates that you'd be able to find in smaller sizes - which you and your wife may or may not need.

I think I have to clarify, I meant only the actual plate, not the whole rig. The Scubapro Hydros rig also weighs in around 10#.
So I think it would have to be a AL plate or a skeleton steel one? Interesting that there's no small AL plates. Good to know, would have to look further there.

Regarding the size, is there any guidelines/best practices on how big the backplate should be? E.g. if you have it to where it's supposed to be around your shoulders standing straight, how far down it should go? E.g. be above the small of your back, rest on your behind (probably not).

I DO think that most people (including myself) take some time to really dial in a BP/W rig and get it to where it works well for them. Having someone experienced to help/mentor that process in person can also be really useful. As you said you would need to be diving it on the go from the very beginning, I think you could very easily experience the frustration you described. For anyone planning to use a BP/W rig for the first time, I would say they would be doing themselves a favor if they allocated 1 or 2 pool sessions to trying it and adjusting it before they go off to do real dives with one. Not that you can't get it reasonably close on the first go and still enjoy every dive, even if you do get out thinking "okay, I'm going to change XZY before the next dive."

Sounds reasonable, since we would still have some time before we'd go on our trip, we might want to do some pool dives anyway. To @dmaziuk 's point above: I guess we have to decide how much the tinkering is worth to us.

So, the only thing I can say about your choice, really, is if I were making that same choice, I would rule out all the other BPs and only be debating between the Freedom Contour and the Hydros. To me, the Freedom plate is well worth the extra it would cost over something like the DGX plate. I do know that @Eric Sedletzky makes them in different sizes, but I have a suspicion that he is completely out of stock right now. To a question you asked, the Freedom plate would require the same "extras" as any other BP - wing, harness, tank straps, etc..

Thank you for the solid opinion and suggestion here. Does anyone else have thoughts on this? Especially given the comment and my question around different plate sizes?

 

[qubus]

@dulinor Thanks for the confirmation. I guess I'm leaning a lot towards the Scubapro Hydros but before I pull the trigger, want to make sure I won't regret it in the long run and consider the more complex alternatives despite my lack of knowledge/experience regarding BP/W.

Do you have any experience with BP/W?

 

[Addicted2H2O]

If you're wanting a BC and not a BP/W, then I'd strongly recommend the Zeagle Brigade for you and the Zeagle Zena (corset front closure) for your wife. My wife and I dive these and have been very happy with them. They fit every criteria you have listed about and even a couple of extra things you wouldn't think of like the ability to unscrew the power inflator and connect the hose to a garden hose to flush out the bladder. Most other BCs need an attachment for that but on the Zeagles it's a standard feature. Weight integrated using a ripcord system for emergency ditch, trim pockets on the lower of the two tank bands that I usually put 4 lb (hard and soft) weights in, lots of D-ring and attachment points, and because they're modular systems the ability to customize the fit to your body for comfort. I would recommend adding the split saddle strap to help keep it position just right so it doesn't ride up when you're floating on the surface. But the pricing on both is about where you want it ($500-$550) and I don't think you'd be the slightest bit disappointed.

The only downside with the Brigade is that it was custom designed for ScubaToys here in DFW so they'd be your online retailer for it. It's the same BC as the more expensive Zeagle Ranger, but with a smaller 32 lb bladder. So you can go to whatever LDS you use that carries Zeagle and custom build one to fit and then let the guys at ScubaToys know what size each of the components is. I really think you'd be very happy with it personally. I did lots of research myself when I was looking to buy my BC and the Brigade is what I decided on after getting it fitted, etc. And for the 40 or so dives it's been on so far, I can't come up with a single complaint.

 

[stuartv]

If I were traveling with my Hydros, I would leave the QR weight pockets at home. I would use the travel waist belt with some D-rings installed, and put some trim weight pockets (from DGX) on the tank straps to carry any weight I might need. You said you've been using 14 - 16, I think. You probably won't need quite as much with a Hydros. I only need 6 pounds with mine, in a 3mm suit and an AL80, in fresh water.

The Hydros with the travel waist belt is something like 2 #s lighter than with the QR weight pockets.

I can't really help you much with the question about different size BPs. I have had a DSS Medium and a Large and I couldn't really tell any difference. But, I'm 6' 1" and, umm, a bit "stout".

My approach to BP fitment is that the waist belt is in a fixed location, so I wear the plate at whatever height has the waist belt in the right spot. But, for a smaller person with a too-large plate, I suppose that could mean that the plate is too wide on their back, and/or the top could maybe hit their shoulder blades in a way that is uncomfortable. I'm just not really sure.

I would offer for you to come down here and you could try all of my different rigs. But, they are probably too big to really tell you anything useful. I have one friend here that is a smaller woman and she has a Hydros that she would probably be willing to let you try. But, that doesn't help you with the BP questions.

 

[qubus]

If you're wanting a BC and not a BP/W, then I'd strongly recommend the Zeagle Brigade for you and the Zeagle Zena (corset front closure) for your wife.

Thanks for the suggestion. I think I saw you mention the Zeagle Zena in another post and checked it out. Interesting concept. I haven't considered Zeagle as I guess I haven't come across this brand much yet. I'll look into them.

How is Zeagle with warranties though, especially outside of the US? - I'll have to look into that.