Buy-once-cry-once suit: Deep6 vs Fourth Element vs Seaskin (or others?)

[ChrisMBC]

So, I think it's new suit time. Context:

• I'm an aspiring tech diver, PADI Rescue, GUE-F, aiming for Tech 1 short-run, Cave/etc longer term
• 300ish dives (almost all in the last 2 1/2 years), almost all local shore diving on Vancouver Island
• Been diving a Fusion Bullet for the last 18 months. It's been decent, but it's significantly too big for me. I'm 5'10", 145lbs, long torso/short legs. I originally had a S/M Fusion, and it fit great, until I started wanting to lift my arms over my head. So, I changed to the next size up (think that's a L/XL?), and it fits great in the torso length, but it's oversized everywhere else. I've even rolled up the outer skin arms, because they're 5" too long for my arms.
• In general, I've been finding that most scuba stuff is too short in the torso for me. I demoed a Santi E.motion in M and ML locally - the Medium was too short, and the ML was the right height, but arms/legs too long. I've even got a brand-new Santi Flex 2.0 that I thought was the right size, but is a touch too short in the torso. I've since switched to 2-piece undergarments (4th Element/Waterproof) and they're much better.

Now, I don't want to say money is no object (diving budget is finite, more money on drysuit = less on something else), but I'm really tired of buying something 'budget' and then needing to upgrade later, especially if it's something that doesn't hold value like a suit. My main considerations for a suit:

• Made-to-measure trilam with front entry. Based on my experiences so far, I really don't feel comfortable buying anything off-the-rack.
• Best range of motion within a reasonable level of durability. Focus on range of motion to reach valves, as that's been a big problem for me so far. Lots of rough entries/exits here. I don't care about anything that makes the suit less 'travel friendly' (ie heavier materials that dry slowly), provided it doesn't compromise the diving experience too much.
• Dives DIR-style well. I am certainly not God's gift to trim and buoyancy, so I'll take any help I can get to make ascents and tasks easier.
• Big pockets (non-negotiable)
• Metal zip (purely based on my own experience and friends who have had problems with plastic).
• Socks so I can use rock boots
• Seals: Quick-change silicone neck seal, and I would prefer glued-in Kubi rings, but would settle for any ring system (use the Ellipse currently) that lets me mount Showa 720s.
• Repairability: This is a big one for me. I hate having to send gear off for months to get repairs, which is the case for a lot of the suits, even those I could buy locally. Best feature of the Fusion suit is having my local shop deal with any problems, and the factory nearby for anything major.

With all those considerations, I have narrowed it down (I think) to these options:

• Fourth Element Argonaut 2.0 Stealth Hybrid: (~$4000 CAD with options). I can get it from my local store, ticks all my feature boxes apart from Kubi rings. Dealer is unsure about where repairs happen, but definitely seems like I'd be sending it off. Not a ton of reviews on it, especially for long-term durability.
• Deep6 Makara: (~$2700 CAD): Seems very similar to the Fourth Element in design, but substantially cheaper. Heard very good things about the cut and sizing. Might be able to get Kubi rings, waiting to hear back. My big question is about repairability: I'm aware it's a semi-proprietary fabric that may glue a little differently, even if I can find a local shop/individual who would work on it.
• Seaskin Nova: (~$1700 CAD with all of the options): Definitely an appealing option, not just because of the price but also all the options I can get from the factory. I've heard mixed things about durability and the cut you end up with - anecdotally heard from locals that GUE divers use a 'formula' to tweak the measurements to get the cut they want? Also unsure about the repairability, if I was forced to send it back to the UK for repairs, that would become a dealbreaker.

Options I've thought about and tentatively ruled out:

• Santi: Seems like a LOT of $$$ (5K+). Basically forced into using their seal systems which I don't love the look of. Anecdotally, the durability doesn't seem great, and despite having local(ish) dealers, still have to send away for repairs. Also, I really wasn't impressed with the in-water experience vs my Fusion when I demoed them (although maybe I have unrealistic expectations after hearing them hyped up so much!)
• DUI: Also many $$$, no local dealer, detest the Zipseal concept with a passion
• Ursuit: No dealers in all of Canada (?!), don't see any advantages over the Deep6
• Bare: Word-of-mouth reviews seem fairly unenthusiastic, don't like the plastic zip on the X-Mission, unsure what options are for socks/seals.

I've read through the Seaskin and Deep6 review threads, but I'm wondering if anyone has any personal experience, especially technical diving in cold water. Are there things I've overlooked? Other brands I should consider/ruled-out brands that I should put back in contention?

 

[grantctobin]

If it helps clarify things, Ursuit makes the Deep6 suit, and continues (iirc) to make the Fourth Element suits.

Of the list, I’d elect the Deep6 suit, particularly if they can figure out Kubi rings. I enjoy the Seaskin I have (and I’ve beaten it heavily), but it has its share of seams pulling, the bungee in the pockets needs reinforcement, and the stock neoprene socks are not of the highest quality. Ensure you select the 400g+ undergarment sizing option if you go this route.

Other things of note:

If you get Kubi rings, make sure you pull the inner rings out from time to time to soak. Otherwise the metal will bind together and they’ll need to be replaced.

Very little in the drysuit business requires a return to the manufacture. The two (three?) shops that have done most of the Florida cave community, KUR, WKPP, etc suit repairs for the past twenty years haven’t been affiliated with a specific brand (Gamble, Ted, EE) and repair most suits. Obviously a majority manufacturers do have repair facilities in-house).

 

[lexvil]

I would and have done Seaskin, no crying necessary.

 

[Subcooled]

• I demoed a Santi E.motion in M and ML locally - the Medium was too short, and the ML was the right height, but arms/legs too long.

How about a made to measure suit?

I have a drysuit which has 10 inches of extra length in the legs (was cheap). I have to fold those each time I go diving. Gaiters can help keeping the folds at bay but they are not strictly necessary, as I have learned.

My main considerations for a suit:

• Made-to-measure trilam with front entry. Based on my experiences so far, I really don't feel comfortable buying anything off-the-rack.
• Best range of motion within a reasonable level of durability. Focus on range of motion to reach valves, as that's been a big problem for me so far.

Cordura instead of rubber. Proper size and cut.

• Lots of rough entries/exits here.

Cordura

• I don't care about anything that makes the suit less 'travel friendly' (ie heavier materials that dry slowly), provided it doesn't compromise the diving experience too much.

You cannot get a light and robust suit in one. You'll need two. Basic trilam for flights and cordura for havy duty clean water dives.

• Dives DIR-style well.

It's not about the suit, it's about the diver.
Ideally though, the suit would fit,
Just make sure the suit does not limit your movement.

• Repairability: This is a big one for me. I hate having to send gear off for months to get repairs

I can see you in that stif rubber suit...

With all those considerations, I have narrowed it down (I think) to these options:

• Fourth Element Argonaut 2.0 Stealth Hybrid

I have a Fourth Element drysuit that was made by Ursuit. I live 2.8 miles from the factory.

 

[explore_DMC]

I’ve heard good things about all three but have only seen the seaskin in person. It looks like a good suit but “the small things” look less robust…but hey it’s more affordable than most. I guess I have seen the 4E in stores and it appears top notch but I have yet to see or hear of anyone with one.

X Deep apparently also has a new suit under the confusing/difficult to query “Seal” name. It looks to be two layers like your Fusion.

I have a Santi emotion+. It’s good but the boots are crap for PNW shore diving, and some people have problems with their glove system.

 

[Robert H. Diver]

I just got a Seaskin nova and only have a handful of dives on it, so I can’t say anything about the durability of it as others can. What I can say is that it fits me perfectly, feels great in the water, I got all the options, quick change neck and wrist seals and “tech boot.” I got one for myself and my wife for less than I would pay for a single suit from another manufacturer. I also got the plastic zip, when the plastic zips first came out they weren’t as reliable as they are now. A lot of improvements have been made. Brass zips are also preferred on the back as they stay straighter, plastic are “better” for front zip since you can bend them and there’s less of a chance you’ll damage it.

 

[sylverbard]

What. did. your. GUE-F. Instructor. Wear?

DIR does not use rear zipper suits. do you understand why?

DIR uses immensely large pockets on both legs. Do you understand why?

Buy a SANTI, or DUI drysuit. period.

 

[grantctobin]

Buy a SANTI, or DUI drysuit. period.

lol. Or any of the other ten options available that fulfill all GUE requirements splendidly.

 

[sylverbard]

lol. Or any of the other ten options available that fulfill all GUE requirements splendidly.

show me what the GUE staff dive.

 

[Boarderguy]

show me what the GUE staff dive.

Don't choke down all the kool-aid in one sitting friend. The suit brand isn't part of GUE, it's the setup. If the GUE staff only dive Faber tanks does that mean they're the only ones that hold air and can be trimmed out? Do they all drive the same car? Method and manufacturer are two separate entities.