Bald Wookie
Contributor
Sounds like we need a third party test of insulating undergarments.
Question Building a cold water undersuit/undergarment system.
- Thread starter Erik H
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Well... we kind of did. @rjack321 has dove Weezle+ and Halo 3D. If Halo AR is as warm as Halo 3D there's your answer. It's warm, but not as warm as the Weezle+... but much thinner.
broncobowsher
Contributor
I have a set of Weenzle lite (not the extreme) that I like for warmer dives, 60°F. Really simple and I can dive fresh water without adding weight.
I also have a Halo that is much warmer. But not below 40°F warm. About 50° depending on how I am feeling that day.
Trying to get in the water with a new heated BZ200, which on land feels very much like the Halo. The Halo is a little more front loaded for insulation. Which when trimmed out in the water makes sense. The front has the most pressure and your back has a little bubble above it. Floating on the surface you feel the back being cooler than the front. I have also overheated in the Halo while on the boat getting ready to get in the water on a warm day. If you sweat in the undergarments before you get in the water, you will be cold.
It took me a few dives to figure this out. The warmer I tried to be, the colder I was during the dive. I was also chasing what I thought was a suit leak. Finally figured out that I was overdressing. I would sweat inside a sealed plastic bag. Now I am wet, inside a drysuit, and getting cold. Less undergarment, stay slightly cool, end dry and warm. Something not normally taught, lesson learned the hard way. This is why I wanted the heated BZ200. Try and stay cool, not sweat too much, and add heat as comfort at the right time and not all the time.
I also have a Halo that is much warmer. But not below 40°F warm. About 50° depending on how I am feeling that day.
Trying to get in the water with a new heated BZ200, which on land feels very much like the Halo. The Halo is a little more front loaded for insulation. Which when trimmed out in the water makes sense. The front has the most pressure and your back has a little bubble above it. Floating on the surface you feel the back being cooler than the front. I have also overheated in the Halo while on the boat getting ready to get in the water on a warm day. If you sweat in the undergarments before you get in the water, you will be cold.
It took me a few dives to figure this out. The warmer I tried to be, the colder I was during the dive. I was also chasing what I thought was a suit leak. Finally figured out that I was overdressing. I would sweat inside a sealed plastic bag. Now I am wet, inside a drysuit, and getting cold. Less undergarment, stay slightly cool, end dry and warm. Something not normally taught, lesson learned the hard way. This is why I wanted the heated BZ200. Try and stay cool, not sweat too much, and add heat as comfort at the right time and not all the time.
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Manufacturers would never agree to standard conditions. I'm not even sure what they'd be, how much loft/air is the "right" amount when you have different material thicknesses? What water temp? what suit material? do you test the body prone with compression on the chest and excess gas on the back? Every manufacturer is going to want to highlight their products strengths and avoid their weaknesses.
Aura
Contributor
Just my input as another scandinavian cold-water diver:
I use a trilam suit, and now that the water is 2-3 degrees I use a Halo AR, Xerotherm top, and Arctic leggings. I also use the arctic socks and two pairs of inner gloves underneath my drygloves to keep my fingers warm. I won't freeze if I'm in the water for an hour with these undergarments. Longer than that, then I'd go with heated undergarments. But for dives within one hour, this works just fine for me. And I can easily do valve drills etc.
I use a trilam suit, and now that the water is 2-3 degrees I use a Halo AR, Xerotherm top, and Arctic leggings. I also use the arctic socks and two pairs of inner gloves underneath my drygloves to keep my fingers warm. I won't freeze if I'm in the water for an hour with these undergarments. Longer than that, then I'd go with heated undergarments. But for dives within one hour, this works just fine for me. And I can easily do valve drills etc.
Aura
Contributor
Bald Wookie
Contributor
Isn’t that the whole idea of third party? An independent test across a variety without input from manufacturers? They can dispute results, but they’re there for interpretation with the evidence and testing methodology.
I could see testing various undergarments in the same suit, 10*C water, upright and horizontal, with a temp probe in the middle of a polystyrene manikin until the temp probe reached equilibrium as a decent enough test. Maybe same test at 5, 10, and 15.
Just throwing ideas out, but there are a whole lot of claims and little evidence other than “this suit felt warmer,” which we don’t hold in the greatest regard when it comes to how regs breath.
Obviously this is probably a pipe dream, but wouldn’t it be nice?
My first question would be... What do you eat on dive days?
A proper meal plan can be of equal or bigger difference to the ability to stay warm than garments. More on that after your answer.
I live in Norway, and dive in the Oslo fjord. Close to sweden, and possibly the same waters. Here is my "clothes" plan. You will find that air=warmth. The more air, the more insulation you have. So lead is of the essence. Depending on where you live, you might see more divers with small (D7s) doubles. More steel and a more stable base with weight that is actively working for you instead of just as lead blocks. However...
Depending on temperature I use these layers in dives from Rec45mins to ColdDecoCave 3-4hrs:
Hood: Either 10mm Waterproof, 10mmK1 or 10mm Dive Systems. (7mm will NOT do)
Core:
Super thin Merino Silk Icebreaker longsleeve shirt to protect the Electric west from sweat and oils from skin)
Electric heated vest (Had Santi 55w for many years, love it, but switched to Trojan 70w for more warmth)
Devold Duo Active Merino Shirt. (Depending on length of dive I do 1-3 of these)
Legs:
Devold Duo Active Merino Underpants.
If cold/long i use Aklima Double Wool (Mesh and Wool layer doubled up) ekstra
Undergarment:
On top of all this, I use KWARK Navy (for summer) and KWARK Navy Extreme (For winter). This is currently the suit I have found that best balances warmth, mobility and stretchyness (I am a hippy girl). There ARE warmer suits out there, but usually it comes at a price of mobility or lack of sizes that fit.
On the feet I use Dovrefjell Original Ultrafrotte Socks. (Usually 3 pairs as my drysuit shoes are a bit too long)
Drygloves with a proper ring system! If you keep the cuffs, make sure they are not too tight. It takes but the lightest of pressure to cause a disruption in blood flow with resulting cold hands. Merino Wool Gloves. Enluva Inner Gloves. One pair with fingers and cuff cut off to keep just over the hand to minimise volume and one extra full pair to insulate fingers.
Keep in mind: Cave Cut in scandinavia just means well-fitting. You need volume of air to retain warmth and this comes at the price of lead (usually) Be too skimpy on volume/lead and you get a summer/florida suit.
Also, remember that good hydration also influences heat distribution, so get a pee-valve and use it.
Nutritional intake will influence your ability to stay warm. A breakfast rich in protein and fat (Eggs, bacon, avocado, whole grain bread, butter) for endurance, and a large hot cup of hot chocolate (with WHOLE milk AND Sugar) just before you splash to have enough fuel to stay warm.
I basically live in wool clothes all year round, so for me it is a plus that most of these under garments double as general day to day wear. This keeps things cheaper and I use less space. It also makes it relatively reasonable to replace when worn out.
A proper meal plan can be of equal or bigger difference to the ability to stay warm than garments. More on that after your answer.
I live in Norway, and dive in the Oslo fjord. Close to sweden, and possibly the same waters. Here is my "clothes" plan. You will find that air=warmth. The more air, the more insulation you have. So lead is of the essence. Depending on where you live, you might see more divers with small (D7s) doubles. More steel and a more stable base with weight that is actively working for you instead of just as lead blocks. However...
Depending on temperature I use these layers in dives from Rec45mins to ColdDecoCave 3-4hrs:
Hood: Either 10mm Waterproof, 10mmK1 or 10mm Dive Systems. (7mm will NOT do)
Core:
Super thin Merino Silk Icebreaker longsleeve shirt to protect the Electric west from sweat and oils from skin)
Electric heated vest (Had Santi 55w for many years, love it, but switched to Trojan 70w for more warmth)
Devold Duo Active Merino Shirt. (Depending on length of dive I do 1-3 of these)
Legs:
Devold Duo Active Merino Underpants.
If cold/long i use Aklima Double Wool (Mesh and Wool layer doubled up) ekstra
Undergarment:
On top of all this, I use KWARK Navy (for summer) and KWARK Navy Extreme (For winter). This is currently the suit I have found that best balances warmth, mobility and stretchyness (I am a hippy girl). There ARE warmer suits out there, but usually it comes at a price of mobility or lack of sizes that fit.
On the feet I use Dovrefjell Original Ultrafrotte Socks. (Usually 3 pairs as my drysuit shoes are a bit too long)
Drygloves with a proper ring system! If you keep the cuffs, make sure they are not too tight. It takes but the lightest of pressure to cause a disruption in blood flow with resulting cold hands. Merino Wool Gloves. Enluva Inner Gloves. One pair with fingers and cuff cut off to keep just over the hand to minimise volume and one extra full pair to insulate fingers.
Keep in mind: Cave Cut in scandinavia just means well-fitting. You need volume of air to retain warmth and this comes at the price of lead (usually) Be too skimpy on volume/lead and you get a summer/florida suit.
Also, remember that good hydration also influences heat distribution, so get a pee-valve and use it.
Nutritional intake will influence your ability to stay warm. A breakfast rich in protein and fat (Eggs, bacon, avocado, whole grain bread, butter) for endurance, and a large hot cup of hot chocolate (with WHOLE milk AND Sugar) just before you splash to have enough fuel to stay warm.
I basically live in wool clothes all year round, so for me it is a plus that most of these under garments double as general day to day wear. This keeps things cheaper and I use less space. It also makes it relatively reasonable to replace when worn out.
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