Buddy System

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Yes I am... And i know it is in the book... in practice, it is just not the right thing to do.

......

Remember books aren't allways right...

Dude- start running now!

I understand (I think) what you are saying but don't agree with it. If you are diving with a buddy and that buddy is out of sight- then you should be looking and if you can't find them, start your ascent. The other diver may be on the surface with a problem.

I rarely dive with a buddy nowadays but when I do, I want to make damn sure where she. She is my wife and has the keys to the house.
 
Yes I am... And i know it is in the book... in practice, it is just not the right thing to do. What isn't in the book is the fact that separation does not mean instant death. So panic is not needed. Follow the plan and if you still haven't found each other in a reasonable amount of time (this is visibility, current and environment dependent), surface and STAY surfaced. Also make sure that is what you agree upon before the dive. Plan the dive and dive the plan. If the plan falls apart, don't do a thing untill you both agree and are sure you are on the same page. Communication is the keyword.

I have never had to start a lost diver search. When separated I would find him or her where I expected him or her to be. Either in front of me, behind me or at the surface.

Remember books aren't allways right...

I'm not sure I agree with all of this, for a variety of reasons.

Blanket statements rarely cover the whole picture. The thing you always have to ask yourself is whether what's in the book makes sense for the situation you find yourself in.

First off, as for following the plan ... what to do in the event of a buddy separation should be part of the plan. You follow what you discussed and agreed to do. In that respect, if you agreed to search for one minute and then ascend, that's what you should do ... because that's what your buddy is expecting. If you didn't verbalize a separation plan, then follow your training ... that's why you got it.

Nobody said anything about panic or death ... so I don't understand why you're using those terms. It's not about panic or death ... it's about uncertainty, stress, and the fact that you're now diving alone in a situation where you are probably unprepared to do so. Panic and death have nothing to do with it ... you make decisions based on the best possibility for the desired outcome ... which in this case is a safe reunion with the person you were diving with, while at the same time taking actions to minimize risk to yourself.

The Incidents and Accidents forum is full of stories about people who were injured or died while diving alone. DAN statistics show that as many as 40% of diving accidents occur while diving alone ... in the vast majority of those cases, the divers did not enter the water alone, but were separated at some point during the dive. How does that happen? It happens because people deviate from their training ... or from what they agreed to do ... or because they failed to make a proper plan in the first place. Or sometimes it happens due to unforeseen circumstances beyond the diver's control.

In an ideal world, dive buddies don't get separated ... or if they do, they know exactly how to react in order to reunite. But we don't live in an ideal world, and sometimes things don't go according to plan. In that case, you have to make a decision ... and that decision should be based on what's best for your safety, and what has the highest probability of producing an outcome that avoids diver injury. In most cases, I think that will involve seeking the safety of the surface, and if you don't reunite with your buddy within a very short period, initiating a lost diver search. It may not be needed. It may create inconvenience for yourself or others. But those are lower priorities than taking actions that will maximize the chance for a good outcome to those involved.

You say stick to the plan. I agree. But that plan needs to include a buddy separation contingency. And once that contingency is verbalized and agreed to, you need to stick to it. And when in doubt, follow your training. If that training says search for one minute and then ascend, that's what you should do.

Seems like common sense to me ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
I do agree that buddy separation should be no reason to panic.

I had my first buddy separation on my 3rd dive in OW class. My instructor lost me on descent, and after a long, tumbling fall, I found myself on my back in 45 feet of water. I sat up, looked around and thought, "Wow, this isn't what was supposed to happen." I took inventory -- I had tons of gas, everything was working, and I had been taught a protocol for the situation: Look for one minute, then surface. I decided to eschew the one minute of searching, because I had no idea whatsoever in what direction to search, or even how far we'd drifted apart as I fell, so I just began an ascent.

But later, after I was certified, I would get EXTREMELY anxious if I couldn't find my buddy. In retrospect, I think that was as much because I felt responsible for the person I couldn't find as for any other reason. I'm not sure my anxiety level when I can't find my buddy (if my buddy isn't someone I know is rock solid) is any less today. I'm not afraid for myself, but I'm afraid for the person I've lost -- why did they go missing, and are they okay?

For this reason, if no other, I think a protocol that clearly delineates the time that should be spent underwater before surfacing, if a buddy is lost, is an important one. If you have clearly and firmly agreed on a procedure, and one buddy surfaces and the other does not, the "safe" buddy should feel quite justified in initiating a search and rescue protocol when a couple of minutes have passed and the missing buddy is still unaccounted for.

This approach can and has caused problems. At one of our local dive sites, two divers got separated, one surfaced per protocol and the other finished his dive. He surfaced to a whole raft of emergency vehicles, present because his buddy had raised the alarm. He got banned from the dive site for a year, and I believe incurred a fine.
 
First, I am not talking about panic. I am talking about a protocal that defines exactly when a lost diver search is to begin. It clearly defines time frames that are to be used, so there is no doubt about what to do next. I personally start the clock after I have done a full 360 turn, looking up, down, and horizontally. I have never gone longer than 30 seconds.

Second, I think it is absolute insanity that instructors and dive operations teach one protocol, and then don't bother to follow it because they somehow know better. We have standards for a reason. If you don't like a standard, you should be having conversations with your certifying body to get the standard changed.

I teach the standard and add awareness and common sense... The standards are not wrong, but they are not all there is, awareness,and common sense somehow get forgotten and students sometimes just turn those off..

---------- Post Merged at 06:36 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 06:31 PM ----------

Dude- start running now!

I understand (I think) what you are saying but don't agree with it. If you are diving with a buddy and that buddy is out of sight- then you should be looking and if you can't find them, start your ascent. The other diver may be on the surface with a problem.

I rarely dive with a buddy nowadays but when I do, I want to make damn sure where she. She is my wife and has the keys to the house.

No need to run... I don't plan to elaborate in length on my statements, just that every situaton deserves a certain method. there are more than just the solutions in the book. That is my main point....

And dude... ever heard of spare keys ? :) <this would be a time to start running>

To be honest, I have hardly dove with non GUE trained buddies the last 700 dives so that might distort my views... these buddies you just can't get rid of even if you wanted...

The non GUE trained divers were my students and these guys i don't let out of my sight ( i don't do groups, just one on ones)

---------- Post Merged at 06:43 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 06:31 PM ----------

This approach can and has caused problems. At one of our local dive sites, two divers got separated, one surfaced per protocol and the other finished his dive. He surfaced to a whole raft of emergency vehicles, present because his buddy had raised the alarm. He got banned from the dive site for a year, and I believe incurred a fine.

That's just the cry wolf situation I mean...
 
I have to disagree that this was a bad outcome. Every diver who witnessed this event was given the best possible lesson on the importance of buddy procedures. The diver at fault received a lesson that they will never forget and fortunately nobody died in the learning! Who knows if this event saved lives in the lesson it taught. Sure emergency services were called but I can tell you from my time in Emergency services we would rather someone call us too early and have it turn out to be unnecessary than delay the call. Earlier notification normally results in better outcomes!

I have experienced very few buddy separations. Two resulted in me refusing to dive with the buddies involved again as they didn't follow the process. Two resulted in buddies reuniting at the surface quickly as they followed the process and the dive continued.

Only on one do I have regrets on the way I responded. It was many years ago before I really understood the difference between a "Safety stop" (optional) and a Deco Stop (required). My buddy proceeded directly to the surface at a safe rate. He wound up hanging out there worrying about me (an inexperienced diver) under rather unpleasant surface conditions while I did my Safety Stop. I now consider a Safety Stop to be a desirable process to follow but I will not do a safety stop if separated from my buddy. I dive with a group of friends.. nobody under 50 so I consider that the increased potential for a medical emergency outweighs the potential of a missed Safety Stop causing problems.

As far as PADI (or any other training agency's) RULES. I consider those to be guidelines to be used with your brain engaged not rules etched in stone! It is impossible to give people step by step instructions on how to respond to every situation that can occur. We give them guidelines and skill sets (coping tools) that we hope they can apply in a sensible manner to the nuances of the situation they find themselves in! To be safe divers need to be thinking problem solvers not rule following robots!
 
I think it is my job to stay with my buddy and not my buddy's job to stay with me. I think so because I control what I do and not what you do. When I dive with you, you are my most important safety backup. you don't have a buddy so you can save them, you have a buddy so they can help you in a situation. It takes two to lose a buddy.

Diving is a decision and a successful dive will be a series of decisions, or plan your dive and dive your plan.
 
To be honest, I have hardly dove with non GUE trained buddies the last 700 dives so that might distort my views... these buddies you just can't get rid of even if you wanted...

Love it! It's so true . . .
 
TSandM:
This approach can and has caused problems. At one of our local dive sites, two divers got separated, one surfaced per protocol and the other finished his dive. He surfaced to a whole raft of emergency vehicles, present because his buddy had raised the alarm. He got banned from the dive site for a year, and I believe incurred a fine.

That's just the cry wolf situation I mean...

No ... it wasn't a cry wolf situation. It was a case of one diver deciding to break the dive plan because he was having too good a time to abort the dive. The one who "cried wolf" followed the plan.

The diver who decided to go off and have a good time remained underwater for another hour, creating all sorts of inconvenience and expense for a lot of people. The nearby ferry stopped running in order to launch a rescue boat to search the water. Police and fire rescue teams were deployed. Other divers were involved in the search. And the diver who continued his dive broke two local ordinances doing so ... rules prohibiting solo diving and DPVs inside the park. And when he came in, rather than admit his mistakes he argued about why he had the right to do what he did.

If you are indeed GUE trained, I'm surprised at your attitude ... I've never met a GUE trained diver who would tolerate someone doing such a thing ... or dive with anyone who did ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
Bob, THAT is a story that needs to be broadcast! People really need to read about this event to hammer home the importance of following lost buddy process.

Our LDS used to send new divers and pretty well anyone who wanted a buddy to join us on our regularly scheduled dives. We got fed up when we started having dives ruined by divers harassing critters, ignoring dive plans, buddy procedures and not fitting with our rather environmentally committed group.

The last straw when one did exactly what you describe. Separated from the group and his assigned buddy in poor viz and continued the dive anyway. The group (we weren't there that dive) surfaced, left two on the surface to watch for him when he didn't surface, two went down to do a search pattern, didn't locate then all were on the way to shore to call emergency services when the guy nonchalantly exited. When he saw nothing wrong with what he did, he was told he was not welcome to dive with our group in the future. Now we have a "closed group" and only a group member can invite someone to dive with us then the group will decide if they will be invited back. It has sure made our dives much safer and more enjoyable.
 
I must say, that in our club, if you lose your buddy, then, no-one will surface. What will happen is that the buddy-less divers will then continue the dive alone or return to the anchor or exit. This is something that we have all agreed on. However, this does not apply if we have a new or experienced diver with us.

In most cases, to surface when on a shore dive will have more danger (from boats) than the dive back to the exit. For boat dives, then it is safer to swim back to the anchor. In 40 years, this has never caused a problem.

I should say that our divers have probably an average of 750+ dives as a minimum and are used to diving in all sorts of conditions.
 

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