Buddy Air Balancing?

[Diver Dennis]

Instructors say that, here on the board, and yet I never see cash getting turned down for dives once an OW diver has ten or so dives.

Go to Palau and interview the people diving Blue Corner, you might be surprised. Take a job with them and lets see if you are the only one to stand up and say "I refuse to dive these people" until they have 100 dives. I see a huge disconnect with Instructors out there working at the really great dive destinations. Is it right? I don't know...but that is the way it is, most places I have dived. To have divers trained in the burbs and then finding themselves in remote foreign places, they must be able to think beyond PADI.

Most of the time, I see lack of flexibility, blind following, and rigid adherance to rules, without being able to problem solve, as the major ways most divers get into trouble, not by emulating skills way over their heads, jack-*** style.

I agree Catherine. A lot of the time what I read here and what I see diving are not the same. I dive in tropical destinations with good or great vis in warm water, non overhead environments. This is definitely a lot different than low vis cold water and does not require as strict adherence to the rules. Not to say you don't need a plan but lets face it, it is much easier diving and usually done from a boat that comes to pick you up.

I like JB's line Catherine, "Never fall in love with the plan." I like the way you dive Nemrod, I'm pretty much the same.

 

[Nemrod]

Well, Catherine, it seems I am odds with all the gas/dive planning, doubles forever, men in black guys over--guess---not planning their dives by the time honored law of the land, the Rule of Thirds.

Well, I was cave diving back in the early 70s, I think the reason I am still here is that the Rule of Thirds was forced vividly upon me by all the bodies they were hauling out of the caves back then on a regular basis. Now I find myself from time to time not living up to my convictions, death stalks us all, why not me?

N<--it is a depressing time of year

 

[sambolino44]

This is great! Nowhere but on ScubaBoard can I eavesdrop on a discussion like this, concerning what some may think is an arcane subject, between divers with a lot of experience (or at least a lot more than me!), whom I don't have much chance of meeting in real life.

I've "balanced" air before, but as I get more experience I think I'd rather approach it from the point of view of addressing the real issues, instead of using balancing. Also, I think I'd rather be more independent, even if the buddy is there for backup. In other words, I usually agree with my buddy before the dive that we head back when either one of us hits the agreed-upon turn-around PSI. But I hardly ever do a dive where you couldn't just go up at any point and surface swim back. I'm usually nowhere near rock-bottom or NDL. Maybe if I get a drysuit that will change.

This thread illustrates what I think is one of the things that makes SCUBA diving interesting: it's an activity that can be life-threatening, but nevertheless, many, many people with terrible skills and habits can do it for years with no drama. Kind of like driving a car. That doesn't mean they aren't an accident waiting to happen. The wide gulf between the casual divers and the hard-core techies creates a fascinating tension! Thanks for sharing (pun intended)!

 

[MikeFerrara]

Well, Catherine, it seems I am odds with all the gas/dive planning, doubles forever, men in black guys over--guess---not planning their dives by the time honored law of the land, the Rule of Thirds.

Well, I was cave diving back in the early 70s, I think the reason I am still here is that the Rule of Thirds was forced vividly upon me by all the bodies they were hauling out of the caves back then on a regular basis. Now I find myself from time to time not living up to my convictions, death stalks us all, why not me?

N<--it is a depressing time of year

You bring up a good point. As far as I know, the rule of thirds was developed by cave divers for cave diving. Cave dives usually come in a few types.
You swim in until it's time to turn and go out the way you came in along the exact same rout following the exact same line. It's easy to see how the rule of thirds applies here. You can do a circuit[/I]. Since we're not coming back by the same rout we use two dives to set it up so we know where in the circuit we hit thirds insuring that we have at least double what we need to get out at the furthest point. A traverse which is set up much like the circuit, using two dives, only involving different cave entrances.

The rule of thirds is time honored for cave diving but how does that apply to open water? Unless there is something about that open water dive that absolutely requires that you get back to the entry point under water, it usually doesn't. The surface is our out. We need enough gas to get two divers to the surface. The "rule of thirds" is not time honored for open water diving and often just doesn't apply at all.

The doubles forever men in black aren't the ones who are confused about gas mamnagement or the rule of thirds.

 

[Charlie99]

Mike stated the true underlying rule pretty succinctly as "....the bottom line being that I need enough gas to get me and my buddy both out of the water".

Each diver, at all times, needs to have enough gas to get both him and his buddy back to safety.

For some dives (in and out cave dive with no flow) that is rule of thirds. For some dives (out and back open water, but beneath a shipping lane where you would prefer not to surface, but can in a dire emergency) that will be 1/2 + xxx psi. For some dives (NDL drift dives, or shore dives where a return by surface swim is acceptable) the true minimum gas is merely that required for two divers to do a safe ascent. In dives with decompression, that is yet another factor to be taken into account. For example, in the somewhat unusual case of a straight vertical descent, followed by a straight vertical ascent, clearly the gas needs cannot be met by just the rule of thirds.

Applying the rule of thirds to all dives is ridiculous and shows a lack of understanding.


This also all ties back into buddy air balancing in that, when you really strip everything away and look at what you really need, what is needed at any and all times is a safe plan for both divers to exit the water. You don't really need to know ahead of time precisely where you are going to go on a dive, merely knowing at all times how to get back out is sufficient. It doesn't matter what sort of air sharing has gone on during the dive, as long as each of you have enough air for both of you to safely complete the dive (or more accurately, each diver has enough air for both divers to safely abort the dive).

Charlie Allen

 

[Nemrod]

Applying the rule of thirds to all dives is ridiculous and shows a lack of understanding.

I think this has been an interesting thread and no name calling or going off the deep ends and informative.

Chalrlie99 says:
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Applying the rule of thirds to all dives is ridiculous and shows a lack of understanding.
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I will stick with what I said, you cannot have it both ways. All dives should be planned and have certain key points agreed upon on in advance or if solo then mentally noted. Cave, reef, drift, lake, shore or whatever planning is critical to all dives. Surfacing is always possible in non overhead diving---of course it is---but there are jet skis, boats and who knows what up there to take your head off also.

The application of the Rule of Thirds by STRICTLY divinding by 3 is uneeded in open water diving---I have agreed with that and do not do it myself--but I do apply the intent of the rule which includes an air (gas) plan, turn points or key points if a turn is not required and an adequate reserve (which may be only 500 psi) for myself and my buddy.

Yes, strict application of the rule is overkill in open water, planning, which is critical to the intent of the rule is applicable--which part of that is confusing to you guys? There is no lack of understanding on either side here--there is some hipocrasy and rationalizing going on though.

So, we don't plan open water dives, we don't have a turn or surface bingo gas?, we don't keep a reserve?, we don't try to return to anchor or safe entry and exit?

The problem with strict rules is they cannot be made to apply to the zillions of different circumstances, that is where judgment comes in, knowing WHAT is important to a safe execution of the dive and that which is not.

I will stick to my guns, read back and note, I have not changed my statements. Y'all dive without a plan if you like, fortuantely, most of the time you can get away with it--except--when you cannot. It is also true, fixation to a plan is foolish when things are not working for it, one might say though that was due to improper preperation to begin with, however.

N

 

[MikeFerrara]

Who said they dive without a plan?

 

[Nemrod]

MikeF says:
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Who said they dive without a plan?
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Well you did somewhat here:
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The rule of thirds is time honored for cave diving but how does that apply to open water? Unless there is something about that open water dive that absolutely requires that you get back to the entry point under water, it usually doesn't. The surface is our out. We need enough gas to get two divers to the surface. The "rule of thirds" is not time honored for open water diving and often just doesn't apply at all.
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Diving until you run out of air or down to reserve and then making a straight ascent is not much of a plan.

I suspect we are really in agreement and we are just arguing--lol. I fully understand dive planning and I know that you do also, we just approach it from different training perspectives. I approach it from my early cave training which to this day colors my diving and you approach it from a "tech" standpoint which is your background but the result is the same--we both dive with a solid plan, an out and a reserve sufficient for the intended dive.

I think this thread is worn out.

N

 

[redacted]

Diving until you run out of air or down to reserve and then making a straight ascent is not much of a plan.

How did you read that into Mike's statement

 

[Thalassamania]

Diving until you run out of air or down to reserve and then making a straight ascent is not much of a plan.

Sometimes, in some places, for some people, that's really all the plan that is required