BSAC and DIR

[dbulmer]

LimeyX,
A lot of the HSE stuff applies strictly to paid instruction - BSAC instructors in the UK are by and large not paid. There are professional BSAC schools but they tend to be outside of the UK.

In my own case I'm in an SAA club where we do have Gue trained divers - I'm not DIR but have dived/do dive with GUE trained people (one of my buddies is BSAC trained). As far as training is concerned we adopt the SAA training practices since we are an SAA club but once the diver is qualified the trainee will see quite a few BP/W, long hoses, DUI suits, HIDs and regular training sessions which include OOA, mask removal, gas planning, tables - some of us even attempt the GUE basic 5 (allbeit badly).

In terms of buddy/team awareness - this is stressed the moment you join the club and is on going.

Risk assessment is done by both BSAC/SAA although it is often done quietly and behind the scenes by suitably qualified people (I would most definitely not fall into this category as I'm a trainee). Trainees go through depth progression and before each dive you are given guidelines about what you can/cannot do by the DO. At the weekend I got a dressing down for a dive that I made - I won't go into details here but in retrospect the DO was right but I didn't think so at the time.

One thing I do want to say is my intro to DIR divers was through my club. As people on this forum know well , DIR folks in the flesh are a lot different to what you hear on the internet. My own experience has been very positive but in terms of the mentoring that the original poster mentioned I have found that the DIR divers are reluctant to pass on too many DIR tips. Why? You might ask! Well the answer is very simple - they don't feel they can pass on what was taught to the same standard that they received!
They hold the instruction in such high regard that they feel that someone curious about DIR should speak to a GUE instructor about Fundies. Having said all that when you dive with the DIR folks you naturally pick up on some tips.

For me personally I recognise a lot of TSandM experience with one huge difference - she got off her backside and got the training. And anyone who does that deserves a huge pat on the back because it's not easy and requires a lot of commitment.

 

[Vayu]

In north Florida it is not difficult to find DIR oriented mentors if one is willing to look. DIR or not, good buddies can be found with various levels of training throughout the world.

 

[ScubaMilo]

Christian,
Take a look at the So Cal DIR board it is littered with posts putting together exactly these types of dives.
Just because you don't choose to be a part of the local group doesn't mean it's not going on around you. (Not meant mean, just trying to get you to come dive with us)

Ask, LAJim, Glycerine, RiGuerin, G-reg, Fishtaco, Globaldiver or myself and many others sorry if I missed your names.

We are doing 2-3 dives a week regularly, skills, practice and general DIR knowledge sharing.

I know it's a bit of a drive but LAJim is making it pretty regular.

If you were to twist a few arms(AKA: just ask us) we could probably come up your way once in a while

Can't wait to get you out with us,
Milo

 

[headhunter]

Christian,
Take a look at the So Cal DIR board it is littered with posts putting together exactly these types of dives.
Just because you don't choose to be a part of the local group doesn't mean it's not going on around you. (Not meant mean, just trying to get you to come dive with us)

Ask, LAJim, Glycerine, RiGuerin, G-reg, Fishtaco, Globaldiver or myself and many others sorry if I missed your names.

We are doing 2-3 dives a week regularly, skills, practice and general DIR knowledge sharing.

I know it's a bit of a drive but LAJim is making it pretty regular.

If you were to twist a few arms(AKA: just ask us) we could probably come up your way once in a while

Can't wait to get you out with us,
Milo

Milo,

When I say that little by little in this regard things are changing for the better in SoCal, I was specifically thinking about your group! I appreciate the gentle nudge to come down and dive with you. I enjoyed diving with you, Robert Phillips and fishtaco that day that I was teamed up with TeqP.

I have not in anyway chosen to exclude myself from that group and in fact, I am hoping to spend a whole lot more time with all of you this year! Because of work, I can't make it midweek, but plan to practice with you all on weekends.

LAJim actually lives about 5 minutes from my house and I consider him a neighbor. I have no problem with the drive to Laguna Beach, since it's only about 75 miles. I can get there in just over an hour in the early morning, but if I were to try to get there by leaving at 5 or 6 pm in rush hour, it would probably take me about 2 - 3 hours. I doubt you all want to do a skills dive at 9PM.

I'm hoping that eventually more of the DIR divers that have been around for a long time in the area will come out and help us with the benefit of their experience.

I'll see you soon!

Christian

 

[limeyx]

LimeyX,
A lot of the HSE stuff applies strictly to paid instruction - BSAC instructors in the UK are by and large not paid. There are professional BSAC schools but they tend to be outside of the UK.
...

For me personally I recognise a lot of TSandM experience with one huge difference - she got off her backside and got the training. And anyone who does that deserves a huge pat on the back because it's not easy and requires a lot of commitment.

yeah, I guess I'm just too old and cynical.

My usual risk assessment goes something like "Are tanks strapped to my Back? yes. is there anybody below me that I might hit if I jump now? Nope."

 

[Gilldiver]

One of the things no one has pointed out yet is that for a formal system, you need instructors etc. that are formaly controled by GUE. A quick check on the GUE web site for instructors show that there are only something like 48 instructors in the WORLD listed. Of these 48, 29 are listed as qulified for Fundementals only. In the US the numbers are 18/11.

GUE just does not have the bodies to do formal groups yet. Maybe in another 15 to 20 years or so.

As for the US, any instructor that advises or instructs above their qualifications (a fundies doing cave or tech at any level) is Leagle Toast in a court.

The result is the informal groups where experianced divers talk to lesser experianced divers but do not instruct and have no formal controls.

 

[Archangel]

Christian, glad you started this thread. I am proud to be a part of the DIR community, and having carefully read this post, echo a LOT of what has been said. Let me just say hoorah to what has been written from all of you.

We here in the Los Angeles area have a plethora of spot on great mentors. Karim goes out to Pt Dume on Wed and Sundays, Milo can be found last notice and weekends. We are really lucky to have these people. MHK is always accessible by phone. . .

the list goes on and on. . . .

Truly the turning point and sentinel mentor I have been blessed with are HBDiveGirl and Mo2vation who took me under their respective BIG wings.

I am just finishing up PADI DM and as far as the liability issues, what if we just dont dive with unsafe ego driven know it all divers (there is a GI III term connoting cerebral vascular accident that describes those divers)? But eager new divers that are made aware that there is a safer way.

I am committed to stepping up and paying it forward. I am going to join you Christian and start DIR curious dives at the Wrinkles events (first must shed this provisional label) and helping to shape this amazing groundswell that has been created.

I know only about the BSAC from what I have read on the internet and from what I have heard. Looking forward to diving with our British brothers. How great would it be to take on a new diver and mentor that diver for six months helping, and helping (DIR F in here somewhere) and helping, until that diver could competently dive without drama?

I know that I am asking nirvana, but what if nirvana started with us?

Claudette saved my life and did this FOR me!

Your thoughts,

Tevis

 

[String]

Without reading TOO deeply at this time of night im not aware of any standards in BSAC that would stop someone diving DIR style if they wanted with the agency. Not 100% certain if you could teach using a DIR setup as its something ive never been interested in (im NOT dir) - there maybe some things there such as AAS use, weight belt jettison etc. Depends how strictly worded those standards are.

That said, a BSAC trained diver assuming dive leader leavel with adv nitrox course if they went through the normal syllabus as it typical in clubs wont have a long hose or familiar with its use, will obviously have different tables and so on.
Oh, they'll probably have a 15 year old buddy commando jacket too...and apeks regs.

Skillwise its very very variable. Some clubs get trainees through the grades in the minimum time needed (almost padi/ssi etc like), others drag it out over 20-30 dives so quality even at the same diving grade can vary hugely depending if the club forced the slow with experience method or the qualify quick then dive method.

I do like the mentoring idea though. Although its not official generally you're in a club, training will be done nearly always by several instructors as opposed to one and it can take literally months. During that time and after qualification in a club environment you're generally paired either with an instructor or a more experienced diver as you progress (obviously 2 man buddy pairs here) so experience is gained through diving and with someone more experienced than the other. Generally id say it works more than it fails. Its definately more gradual exposure then throwing someone in after 4 dives and calling them qualified.

Another advantage of clubs is that generally they own their own boat so can dispense with a lot of charters and have cheaper diving and customised to what they want to do that particular day.

The type of diver in clubs is variable too. There are still a LOT of them very old school made up mainly of people there for the last 30 years that havent yet got senile. These generally resist change or anything new. Expect to see identical BCDs (commandos), Wings are evil and will kill you, nitrox is evil and will kill you, twins are not needed ("why do you need twins and a stage when i can take my 15l to 55m on air ?"). Some clubs are entirely like that, some a mix, some are far more modern and advanced. A lot of the time its pot luck what sort is in your area.

Also worth noting SAA and other club based agencies have similar systems.

BSAC risk assessment==Hide behind the HSE regulations?

I'm amazed anyone gets *anything* done in england with the HSE on their arses.

Its the opposite and a strange area. BSAC being a "club" means training is amateur, therefore not at work therefore HSE doesnt apply. This makes training substantially easier - you dont need the minimum 3 man team for open water, project plans, letters of appointment, expensive annual HSE medicals and so on. Its only due to this exemption training is "free".

But yes HSE does prevent most things getting done - very few independent instructors in the UK because if they arent bsac they need a 3 man team for even 1 student and so on which makes it prohibitively expensive for a lot of people.

Example with me currently, i can teach a dive leader lesson down to 50m totally on my own, no in water support or paperwork but i cant take a PADI underwater photography in 1.5m without a 3 man team and the paperwork. Even teaching friends for NO profit under any commercial agency is classed as at work so HSE applies.

Its a mess.

Bet youre sorry you asked

 

[TSandM]

Archangel, I got my wonderful dive buddy dsteding doing exactly what you describe. He did his roughly 7th dive of his life with me. He's doing Fundies in March. I can't take credit for his beeline to Koolaid, because he was headed there before I met him, but I think I may have helped. It's a great feeling.

 

[limeyx]

Without reading TOO deeply at this time of night im not aware of any standards in BSAC that would stop someone diving DIR style if they wanted with the agency. Not 100% certain if you could teach using a DIR setup as its something ive never been interested in (im NOT dir) - there maybe some things there such as AAS use, weight belt jettison etc. Depends how strictly worded those standards are.
...
Bet youre sorry you asked

From what I have read (from people who have yet to escape the homeland

BSAC does somewhat allow you to teach with a DIR gear style. It may not be the "official party line" but I think plenty of BSAC people teach in long-hose etc.

Not that gear is even 1% of GUE/DIR but, it's a start!