BP/W - what's the go with air movement in the wing?

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There are quite a few people who like doughnut wings, where gas can pass from one side to the other both at the top and at the bottom. Tobin, who makes both, makes the argument that the channel for gas movement at the bottom of the wing is compressed between the tank/tanks and the plate, or the diver's back, and in reality, does very little. I find his argument persuasive. I've dived my horseshoe wing and Peter's torus wing, and I found no functional difference between them -- but I'm properly weighted and dive (most of the time, anyway) in horizontal trim.
 
There are quite a few people who like doughnut wings, where gas can pass from one side to the other both at the top and at the bottom. Tobin, who makes both, makes the argument that the channel for gas movement at the bottom of the wing is compressed between the tank/tanks and the plate, or the diver's back, and in reality, does very little. I find his argument persuasive. I've dived my horseshoe wing and Peter's torus wing, and I found no functional difference between them -- but I'm properly weighted and dive (most of the time, anyway) in horizontal trim.

Yup, that's pretty much the case.

The lower arc of a donut wing is the absolutely lowest part of the wing for a horizontally trimmed diver.

The top are can fold up until it contact the valve and first stage, the sides of the wing wrap up the cylinder, but the lower arc is under the end of the cylinder.

Gas always goes to the high point in a wing.

Ease of venting is important, but gas will not go downhill from the right side of the wing, under the lower end of the cylinder and up to the left side.

Unless the diver is distinctly heads down, butt up there just won't be any gas in the lower arc of a donut wing.

When is precise venting most important? During ascents. Who ascends butt first?

If you are using a drysuit one has to be slightly shoulder up to vent the suit. This will automatically balance a properly designed narrow wing via the top arc regardless of whether it is a horseshoe or a donut...

Tobin
 
I'd be willing to bet that you're overweighted.
Terry

I think so too. I don't have a lot of air in my wing unless I'm at the surface with a full tank at the beginning of the dive.

However, if a diver were to be overweighted then that diver has to put a lot more air in the wing to achieve neutral buoyancy and that's more air to shift around.
 
Would you mind elaborating on this a bit? I can't tell for sure if you are saying that the BP/W style of BC gives the best control, or if you are saying that of the BP/W's, the Halcyon wing is superior to others (in your experience).

Thanks ahead for clarifying,

B.
Through personal experience, I find that due to the design and construction of the wings that the Halcyon wings have out preformed others. There are a lot of different manufacturers and when comparing them to 4 different ones, IMO, the Halcyon has consistently come out on top. In the end everyone is making a quality product so you have to ask yourself does this fit into my budget and do you like the features and functionality of it.

Unless the diver is distinctly heads down, butt up, there just won't be any gas in the lower arc of a donut wing.

When is precise venting most important? During ascents. Who ascends butt first?


If you are in trim the air is distributed evenly (there is no single high spot) thus it is very easy to vent through the rear dump. Worse case scenario on ascent you will have better control staying horizontal and if anything you would just have to raise your butt ever so slightly, for a second, to vent the BC from the rear OPV. I found that is more efficient than lowering your butt and raising your shoulders (more out of trim) to vent the BC.

For those that want a more technical approach to diving, this is what we do (we are consistently in trim for the majority of our dives). I have divers in our shop that take on this approach and love it, but i also have some that don't and I DON'T look down on them for it. In the end, it's "different strokes for different folks!" Not everyone has to buy into my philosophies and style of diving, but if you do, I guarantee you will end up having more control in the water which leads to better air consumption, longer bottom times and more fun.
 
Well, I find it a little more efficient to pitch very slightly head up on ascent, vent wing AND drysuit simultaneously, and then settle back down, than to go butt up to dump wing and then shoulder up to dump suit, and look like a teeter-totter in midwater :)
 
Hey everyone, thanks for all your great responses. It was my first dive in 23 years and so we didn't go past one bar. It was just a reorientation dive.

About my initial buoyancy, I was positively buoyant at the surface, at the start of the dive, without any air in my BC. I weigh about 70kgs and had a one-piece 7mm wetsuit and a regular sized steel tank (not a tiny fatboy).

When I tried to descend, I would get to approximately 10' and start to float back up. So, my buddy have me a few more pounds, which brought my weight-belt up to 20 pounds, and when I breathed out I was able to descend below the surface. However, I was still a bit positive underwater (I believe air in my hood and in parts of my wetsuit contributed to this) and I had to swim to stay at a constant depth.

Once I got below 20' and had managed to squeeze out much of the excess air in my hood, I was actually a bit negatively buoyant, and could glide along okay but would come to rest on the bottom if I stopped (about 25'-30'). However, it was mostly as I was moving over some larger rocks, up towards the 15'-20' mark, that I experienced the destabilization of my horizontal trim. I didn't have much more than a few squirts in the BC at the time (umm, maybe a quarter full at a rough guess).

I think that TSandM has hit the shifting air/buoyancy issue I was having pretty much on the head:

The only way I can imagine that type of air movement affecting neutral buoyancy is if, for example, you tilted head down by having your feet move UP -- then the bottom of the wing would be higher than it was before, and the gas would expand a little and you'd get a little positive.

I believe this was accentuated by force of the movement, as I remember coming up over the rock from lower down and then trimmed to a horizontal position. I was then looking down into cracks between the rocks/boulders and this tilted my ass up a bit and the air bubble went from front to back, or from head to ass, and caused the instability. This seemed to be how the disturbance occurred mostly during the dive... when altering trim in this way.

Perhaps being so close to the surface also accentuated the issue.

I can't help but think that air would have a tendency to become trapped in one side, or the other, of a U shaped wing. The comments about the doughnut wings being pinched by the tank against the divers body makes sense. I guess it would depend on a few variables as to how much the pinch occurred. Perhaps an STA would provide more of a gap here by offsetting the tank from the backplate and body (single tank diving, of course).

The problem I have, and likely others new to diving, is that I am not in a position to try a few different BCs out. Our LDS' don't stock BP/W's and I know of no one in Canberra that uses one (in fact I don't know anyone that dives, here). So, I have to figure out which design and brand will best suit my particular sense of quality, design and technical appreciation... and not have aspects that I will find lacking or frustrating down the track.

There is one additional thought that I am having about weighting the rig. Many BCs and harnesses seem to have weights integrated into the side straps. While this seems the best for emergency dumping, I can't help but think that it is not an ideal location for trim. Certainly, having the weights forward of your back mounted wing would create a counter-lever effect and tend to pull you onto your face when vertical at the surface. A behaviour which has been experienced by many.

It would make more sense to me to have the weights actually strapped to the back of the tank or the backplate itself, situated right next to the wing. It seems to be similar to the problem of sprung weight in a car's wheels and drive system, which contacts the road. The less unsprung weight the better. In the case of the diver, the less weight attached to the diver themselves the better. Okay, it's not quite the same but the analogy is sound, I think.

I hope this isn't too long winded. All your previous responses have provided a lot of clarification as to general buoyancy behaviour and wing types and their behaviours.
 
@gxtoast: You were probably under-weighted. Do a proper weight check with an experienced diver or instructor and your issues with the initial descent will disappear. You should never have to swim down/up to maintain constant depth. As your wetsuit compresses at depth, you will have to add some air to your buoyancy compensator device (BCD). In a thick 7mm wetsuit, you will certainly have to add air to your BCD in order to become neutrally buoyant at depth.

I weight myself so that I begin a dive negatively buoyant by the weight of the gas in the tank (with BCD empty). This makes the initial descent very easy so long as I'm breathing normally and my wetsuit hasn't trapped any pockets of air. Since I do lots of shore dives, the air pockets generally work themselves out during the surface swim to the drop point.

I wouldn't confuse BCD design with proper buoyancy control at depth. Practice motionless hovering. Any experienced diver should be able to demonstrate good buoyancy control with any properly functioning BCD on the market.
 
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If you are in trim the air is distributed evenly (there is no single high spot) thus it is very easy to vent through the rear dump. Worse case scenario on ascent you will have better control staying horizontal and if anything you would just have to raise your butt ever so slightly, for a second, to vent the BC from the rear OPV. I found that is more efficient than lowering your butt and raising your shoulders (more out of trim) to vent the BC.

You might want to actually look at a wing on a horizontal diver.

The gas is all in the two side pontoons.

Why? because the long sides of the wing can wrap up the cylinder. There will be no gas in the lower arc and no gas in the top arc.

The only way gas could possibly be "distributed evenly" is if the wing was a flat plate, held down by some mystical force.

Tobin
 
You might want to actually look at a wing on a horizontal diver.

The gas is all in the two side pontoons.

Why? because the long sides of the wing can wrap up the cylinder. There will be no gas in the lower arc and no gas in the top arc.

The only way gas could possibly be "distributed evenly" is if the wing was a flat plate, held down by some mystical force.

Tobin

That is pretty much what I have found in both styles of wings.

Donut

Horseshoe (bit too much air in the wing given the depth :wink:) Edit: actually here is a better example of how I have seen wings sit when divers are horizontal

The wing wraps around the cylinder/s and does not have air in the top or bottom of the ring if I am horizontal.

One is a single and one is a doubles wing though, but even with different doubles wings I have noticed no difference between the horseshoe + the donut. Not sure if I have tried a horseshoe single wing actually...

I notice the air moving around if I change positions but I just anticipate it and have not found it problematic or disruptive. It can be useful at times, as discussed by a few posters here, to be able to shift the air around.
 
Horseshoe-shaped wings can be a problem in this regard. This is why I almost always use a doughnut-shaped wing as the shift in air and resulting change in buoyancy can affect my filming underwater. I mostly use single tanks and travel wings like the Dive-Rite or ScubaPro's discontinued (grrr) Trav-Tek.
 
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