BP/W Suggestions...

[Kern]

The choice between the wings came down to one fact for me. Dss wings are known for being bullit proof, but sewn shut. The oxycheq same rep with zipper. I travel alot and wanted the option if the bladder did get an issue the zipper would allow me the oportunity to apply "duct tape" lol
Eric

This is only true of the T series wings. The LCD series have zippers.

Doughnut v's horseshoe; sure there's a little difference, but I'm in a very head down position before any air will pass through the lower arch of the doughnut. In the normal course of a dive, I'm never at an angle that would allow the air to move through the bottom arch of either my double or single doughnuts.

 

[TSandM]

I've dived horseshoe wings most of my diving life, with an occasional dive with a doughnut wing. I have found no functional difference between them -- which makes sense. As Tobin is often given to explaining, the air rises to the highest point of the wing, which is the side pontoons. The "bridge" at the bottom of the doughnut is held down by the tanks, and the only way air will go across it is if you move that part of the wing to the highest point, or if the pressure in the pontoon gets so high that it will push the air DOWN to the connection (in which case, it would much more likely cross the upper arc, which is much larger).

I have never had to go very much out of trim to dump through the inflator hose, and since I have to drop my feet a little and roll a little to the right to dump the dry suit, I end up in a perfect position to dump the wing.

Doughnut or horseshoe is a personal choice, but I really don't think a doughnut wing is worth any more money. (I use a horseshoe wing while cave diving, which is where correct trim REALLY matters.)

 

[cool_hardware52]

I guess it doesn't matter, unless you are doing horizontal ascents..and maintaining good horizontal trim throughout the dive. When you are doing that, then you need to use the rear dump...and that means donut has an advantage.

If you're still ascending vertical body position, and dumping from the LPI hose, then there is not much practical difference between donut and horseshoe designs.

To get gas to travel from one side to the other via the lower arc of a donut wing requires that the lower arc be the high point of the wing.

The lower arc of the wing, for a horizontally trimmed diver is below the lower end of the cylinder. It's between the tank and the diver's butt.

For a horizontally trimmed diver the lower arc is the absolutely lowest portion of the wing, much lower than the top arc, which is free to roll up until contacts the valve.

One needs to be about 45 degrees heads down to move gas through the lower arc, gas *always* goes to the high point. Gas in a donut wing doesn't know it's no longer bound by the laws of physics.

We have welded the bladders of donut wings shut across the lower arc and test divers have not been able to tell the difference.........

Overall wing shape and correct capacity has real effects on how a wing vents, donut vs horseshoe is way way way down the list.

Tobin

 

[RTee]

Agree with TSandM. I have a horseshoe 65lbs lift bladder on my SS BP seet-up for doubles and a 360 donut 30 lbs lift bladder on my Express tech. In both cases...I still use the inflator hose to maintain trim even coming up with both backplate systems using dry and wetsuits. I personally consider the dump valves as something similar to circuit breakers for an electrical circuit equipped with a switch...

 

[cool_hardware52]

Agree with TSandM. I have a horseshoe 65lbs lift bladder on my SS BP seet-up for doubles and a 360 donut 30 lbs lift bladder on my Express tech. In both cases...I still use the inflator hose to maintain trim even coming up with both backplate systems using dry and wetsuits. I personally consider the dump valves as something similar to circuit breakers for an electrical circuit equipped with a switch...

It doesn't matter how you vent gas, via the hose and inflator or via the OPV, gas in a donut wing won't spontaneously move *downhill* from one side "pontoon", and go under the bottom end of the cylinders.

To shift gas through the lower arc of a donut wing requires the diver be a bout 45 degrees heads down.

The lower arc *MUST* be higher than the gas in the side "pontoons" The sides of the wing are free to wrap up along the cylinder(S), the lower arc is not.


For example if I'm at 100 ft and wish t ascend to 90 ft I'll take a big deep breath and just as I start to move I'll exhale and "burp" a bit of gas from my wing via the OPV. If I do this correctly I'll coast to a stop at 90.

I'll repeat the process to move from 90 to 80, and 80-70 etc.

I've only been venting gas from the left side of my wing, that's where the OPV is.

At some point one would expect that there would be more gas in the right side, but in reality that is not the case.

As I ascend I also have to dump my drysuit, and that requires a very slight shoulders high attitude. Dumping the suit is enough to allow either a horseshoe or a donut to wing to equalize via the top arc of the wing.

Donuts aren't evil, we make donut and horeshoe wings. I dive them, and like them.

Donuts aren't magic either. What makes a wing easy to use is amount of tank wrap. That's a function of the shape of the wing and the capacity.

IMO, much of the "donuts are answer" myth springs from divers using huge horseshoe style doubles wings with an STA and single tank. This results in massive taco, and then comparing this to a dedicated smaller, more narrow donut style single tank wing. The smaller singles wing was easier to dive, but not because it was a donut.........

Tobin

 

[fxrguy]

Thanks to everyone for your input. I know just enough about back inflation devices, having used the old At-Pack, that a BP/W is what I want to use again but having been away from the sport so long the options now are bewildering. I knew I came to the right place to sort out all this stuff! I'll probably give Tobin at DSS a call at some point in the future when I'm ready to make a move. One thing about diving hasn't changed in the 30 years since I got certified, buy dependable stuff based on knowledgeable, advice get wet and figure it out as you go. Thanks again!

 

[waterpirate]

This is only true of the T series wings. The LCD series have zippers.

Doughnut v's horseshoe; sure there's a little difference, but I'm in a very head down position before any air will pass through the lower arch of the doughnut. In the normal course of a dive, I'm never at an angle that would allow the air to move through the bottom arch of either my double or single doughnuts.

If that had been a choice when I bought I would have gone DSS. Now the reality is that the wing I have may never wear out, so it is moot. I will never need a wing bigger then the one I have now. My next wing will be the one that fits my breather! Saving my pennies now, for later.
Eric

 

[cool_hardware52]

If that had been a choice when I bought I would have gone DSS. Now the reality is that the wing I have may never wear out, so it is moot. I will never need a wing bigger then the one I have now. My next wing will be the one that fits my breather! Saving my pennies now, for later.
Eric

Ah..... it's always been a choice. The first wings we ever offered for sale were zippered LCDs.

The reality is very few divers carry the necessary tools or have the know how to remove a wing bladder.

We don't get many wings returned for repair, but it doesn't seem to matter if it has a zipper or not, most divers and dive shops simply send in the wing to have qualified techs repair it.

I should also say that "bladder failures" often turn out to be something else, debris in the OPV, torn corrugated hose, etc. Zipper or no zipper has zero impact on those.

Tobin

 

[waterpirate]

As with most things in life, you learn more as you go. This is a prime example. I thought I knew what was available when I bought, obviously not. Who knew Tobin was so buyer friendly? Another example.
Eric

 

[FireInMyBones]

...

...My question/s would be what brand BC's or rig setups or would you BP/W users suggest? I live in Florida am not into cold water diving. Maybe some diving off Daytona with a thin wetsuit but will probably spend most of my time in warm water in south Florida. I weigh about 170 lbs. Not sure how much lift I will need but am thinking 30 lbs will do. Also which type wing would you recommend a horseshoe, which is what I used to use, or a doughnut? I guess my basic questions revolve around the following subjects;

Brand BC's and rig setup suggestions?

Necessary Lift?

Horseshoe/doughnut wing?

Decrees rolling?

Rig creeping up back?

I'm sure as time goes on I will have a lot more questions but I think this is enough to get started on. I would really appreciate any knowledge you guy would like to share with an old and slightly rusty diver.

I weigh 164lbs, and dive both warm and cold water. My suggestions are based on my experience, your mileage may vary.

BC and Lift: Oxycheq 40# (I have this and enjoy the doughnut design) or Deep Sea Supply 40#

Rig: Single piece weave harness, Hogtharian/DIR style. There is a lot of threads on how to set one up on this board. It is very sturdy and I have not felt any rolling.

A crotch strap, regardless of how it sounds, is comfortable and prevents the tank/ rig from ridding up.