BP/W and tanks for a very small woman

[cool_hardware52]

Mostly good info, but there are two points I'd like to make:

1. Recommending an AL 80 for someone 5 feet tall and 97 lbs is not very wise. Perhaps you missed her size?

Given that al 80's and HP80's are very close in dry empty weight, the diver has nothing to gain, in terms of Dry weight, from using a Steel HP 80 vs an al 80. 97 lbs or 197 lbs ~30 lbs of tank is still 30 lbs of tank. OTOH, a Steel HP 80, which may be as much as -7 lbs, although more typically about -3 lbs is likely to overweight her when she is diving without an exposure suit.

Here the buoyancy of a al80 is a benefit. It's a longer tank no doubt, but that's less of problem than being over weighted IMO.

2. You didn't answer her questions

Well I certainly tried. I referenced the when a Kydex (lightweight and slightly flexible) would be appropriate. Perhaps you missed that?

Tobin

 

[Walter]

Given that al 80's and HP80's are very close in dry empty weight, the diver has nothing to gain, in terms of Dry weight, from using a Steel HP 80 vs an al 80. 97 lbs or 197 lbs ~30 lbs of tank is still 30 lbs of tank. OTOH, a Steel HP 80, which may be as much as -7 lbs, although more typically about -3 lbs is likely to overweight her when she is diving without an exposure suit.

Here the buoyancy of a al80 is a benefit. It's a longer tank no doubt, but that's less of problem than being over weighted IMO.

Actually, a steel HP 80 is closer in weight (less than 1 lb difference) to an AL 63 than an AL 80 (although the weight difference isn't all that great) and the AL 80 is much too long for someone who is 5 feet tall. The AL 80 is much more difficult for a short person to carry and much more difficult to wear because of its length, not its weight.

Well I certainly tried. I referenced the when a Kydex (lightweight and slightly flexible) would be appropriate. Perhaps you missed that?

Tobin

No, I saw that, and while it addresses some of what she asked, I miss how it relates to her questions about price, comfort, weight integration, a shoulder dump valve with pull cord or pockets.

 

[cool_hardware52]

Actually, a steel HP 80 is closer in weight (less than 1 lb difference) to an AL 63 than an AL 80 (although the weight difference isn't all that great) and the AL 80 is much too long for someone who is 5 feet tall. The AL 80 is much more difficult for a short person to carry and much more difficult to wear because of its length, not its weight.

If length is your only concern why did you reference the diver's weight?

Here are a couple links concerning tank weights and buoyancy.

XS Scuba Worthington Steel Cylinder Specifications

Scuba Cylinder Specification Chart from Huron Scuba, Ann Arbor Michigan

Please note that the dry empty weight of "HP 80's" can range from 27.7 lbs to 32.5 and the empty buoyancy can range from -7.22 to -2.5.

The two most commonly encountered al 80's will both be about 31.5 lbs empty and will be about +4 in terms of buoyancy. In addition an al 80 will provide close the same volume of gas the diver is currently using.

In my experience, with a well fit BP&W, and properly positioned tank longer cylinders are seldom a problem, particularly in the water.

No, I saw that, and while it addresses some of what she asked, I miss how it relates to her questions about price, comfort, weight integration, a shoulder dump valve with pull cord or pockets.

With a SS plate, a BP&W is inherently weight integrated, it's also absent the inherent buoyancy of most conventional BC's. These two facts combine to reduce the requirement for other ballast. In this case our diver using no exposure suit will not have a need for much ballast, making weight integration effectively moot.

Pull dump? That's a matter of education. There's no technical impediment to adding a cable actuated "rapid exhaust" to a wing, and little to be gained by doing so either.

Pockets? Pretty much the same answer as above.

For many people considering a BP&W in lieu of a conventional BC there is a hierarchy of concerns. Fit, function and the selection of the right set of components is usually at the top, and how to carry extra ballast, pockets , compatibility with Octo inflators etc. secondary.

Unfortunately many seem determined to try and "rebuild" a BP&W into a Conventional BC. They think they need to add pads, weight pockets, a pull dump with an Octo Inflator, some cargo pockets on the waist strap, etc. etc.

While I agree that a BP&W is nothing more than a type of BC, IMO one will not realize all the benefits of switching to a BP&W if they try to convert it back into the BC they just abandoned.

Tobin

 

[Walter]

In my experience, with a well fit BP&W, and properly positioned tank longer cylinders are seldom a problem, particularly in the water.

Next time you carry two AL 80s from your car to the boat, carry them with your arms bent so that one tank valve is at each side at rib height. You will quickly learn that it's much more difficult for a short person (even a short person of equal or greater strength) to carry tall tanks. A BP/wing does nothing to fix the problem.

When putting the BC on the tank, an AL 80 will either be bumping the diver in the back of the head, hitting their calfs or both. It does not matter if the BC is a vest, back inflate or BP/wing, the tank is the same length and causes the exact same issues for divers who are 5 feet tall.

With a SS plate, a BP&W is inherently weight integrated, it's also absent the inherent buoyancy of most conventional BC's. These two facts combine to reduce the requirement for other ballast. In this case our diver using no exposure suit will not have a need for much ballast, making weight integration effectively moot.

Personally, I hate weight integration, but I'm not the person looking at the possible purchase of a BP/wing. Yes, many BCs are poorly designed and have positive buoyancy built in. Some of those BCs with positive buoyancy built in are BP/wings. Maybe yours don't, but if they don't, it's because they were designed that way, not because they are BP/wing. There are well designed BCs that do not have built in positive buoyancy and not all of them are BP/wing. I do know that depending on other factors (fresh vs salt, no suit vs 3/2 vs 7 vs dry, etc.), my weight requirements change. I simply change the amount of lead in my belt. Some folks find weight belts very uncomfortable, so they use weight integration. They change the amount of weight in the pockets. Yes, you could change plates, but changing lead is much easier, much cheaper and you have the ability to fine tune your weighting. You either don't understand weighting or you are avoiding the question.

Pull dump? That's a matter of education. There's no technical impediment to adding a cable actuated "rapid exhaust" to a wing, and little to be gained by doing so either.

Actually, a right shoulder dump is very useful. I rarely use the left side to dump air from my BC and haven't for well over 20 years. Do you have such an option?

Pockets? Pretty much the same answer as above.

Which above answer? That you are avoiding the question?

I don't know anything about your gear, but reading your answers in this thread, I can't imagine why anyone would knowingly do business with you. If you don't have weight integration, a right shoulder pull dump or pockets, simply say so.

 

[cool_hardware52]

Next time you carry two AL 80s from your car to the boat, carry them with your arms bent so that one tank valve is at each side at rib height. You will quickly learn that it's much more difficult for a short person (even a short person of equal or greater strength) to carry tall tanks. A BP/wing does nothing to fix the problem.

There are many solutions for moving tanks out of the water. If I have to shift a lot of bottles I use a cart. I don't really expect that a 97 lbs diver is going to carry two full 80's (total of about 80lbs) anywhere without some means of assistance. Do you?

When putting the BC on the tank, an AL 80 will either be bumping the diver in the back of the head, hitting their calfs or both. It does not matter if the BC is a vest, back inflate or BP/wing, the tank is the same length and causes the exact same issues for divers who are 5 feet tall.

This from some one who admits to knowing nothing of the gear I produce.

Personally, I hate weight integration,

I suspect you have a number of issues with hate.

but I'm not the person looking at the possible purchase of a BP/wing.

No you are not, why don't we let the diver in question respond if they have unanswered questions.

Yes, many BCs are poorly designed and have positive buoyancy built in. Some of those BCs with positive buoyancy built in are BP/wings. Maybe yours don't, but if they don't, it's because they were designed that way, not because they are BP/wing. There are well designed BCs that do not have built in positive buoyancy and not all of them are BP/wing.

I've never said anything to the contrary. It is also quite true that AS A GROUP, one is far more likely to find a conventional BC that is inherently buoyant, and a BP&W that is not.

I do know that depending on other factors (fresh vs salt, no suit vs 3/2 vs 7 vs dry, etc.), my weight requirements change. I simply change the amount of lead in my belt. Some folks find weight belts very uncomfortable, so they use weight integration. They change the amount of weight in the pockets. Yes, you could change plates, but changing lead is much easier, much cheaper and you have the ability to fine tune your weighting. You either don't understand weighting or you are avoiding the question.

I've provided a few examples of how to calculate weight requirements in this thread and many many many times in other threads on SB. Depending on the circumstances I have suggested a variety of means to achieve proper weighting. Often that includes a weight belt.

This particular diver uses little or no exposure suit. That combined with negative tanks leads to being over weighted without any other ballast. I'm at a lost to understand why that fact causes you to question my abilities or motives.

Actually, a right shoulder dump is very useful. I rarely use the left side to dump air from my BC and haven't for well over 20 years. Do you have such an option?

No, there is no shoulder dump on our wings. Somehow our users manage to struggle along without such, as do the majority of BP&W users.

I don't know anything about your gear, but reading your answers in this thread, I can't imagine why anyone would knowingly do business with you.

Walter, get a life. You know nothing of our gear, yet based on a few posting in thread where I had the temerity to disagree, you now need to warn all others about doing business with me.

If you don't have weight integration, a right shoulder pull dump or pockets, simply say so.

Show me any manufacturer who has been as consistently willing to discuss the features of their gear here in public. Our website also provides a great deal of information regarding our gear. I've never dodged any question.

If you want a pull dump and multiple OPV's and cargo pockets and weight pockets etc. have at it. I prefer to offer alternative to that type of configuration. User education is part of my job.

I'm always confident that any well informed user will give our gear serious consideration. I want people to be well informed. Do you think I want to hoodwink people into buying something that they will be unhappy with? I want happy, satisfied customers.

Tobin

 

[lil' castaway]

Tobin,


Concerning the last few of posts between you and Walter. They have been about me.


Walter understood what you didn't - that you didn't answer my questions. You weren't listening to me.


Although I appreciate your concern about my tanks being too big for my current bc because it does not having enough lift - (that is why I'm changing), that's not what I was asking about. But since you did bring up my tanks. Walter is correct - the size (length) of the tank is very important to a small woman. I will not use the AL80 - they are too long and too heavy.


To reiterate what started my inquiry is that I am a small woman and I'm currently am using a jacket bc. I need a new bc and thinking of either a bp/w or jacket. I saw this thread in the women's view and thought -great I'll get some info from women my size using bp/w. I did get some info but mainly everyone pointing me to you. Ok - so I posted my issues - costs and features I wanted (integrated weights, pockets, pull dump, comfort). You didn't address most of them when you told me about your product. Even when I asked a few times - you did not listen, so I just stopped asking. You finally did answer the questions when Walter asked.

What I did find interesting is that I am in the "Women's" Forum and the only time you answered in detail is when Walter asked. I felt like I was in a lds and the owner is addressing my husband like I'm not even there. I never buy from those stores.

MaryAnn

 

[The Chairman]

If I may ask a question here... Mary Ann, if you are already overweighted, why do you want integrated weights?

Walter and Mary Ann, I will personally vouch for Tobin. He is one of the most helpful people I know and takes his time with both women and men alike. If he missed questions, it had NOTHING to do with gender!

I have never seen a wing with a shoulder pull or with integrated weights. Of course his BP&Wings don't have them: none of them do. It's part of the Hogarthian design and I can see how he missed that!

If an AL 80 is too long and an HP80 is too heavy, then hopefully an AL50 or AL63 will do great. I don't know Mary Anne's consumption, but it is probably light!

Tobin's equipment rocks! I dive it all the time. HOWEVER... no hard webbing feels comfortable if you are not diving with neoprene. If your criteria is comfort ABOVE the water, then a traditional BC is for you. That being said, I dive my DSS setup without the aid of neoprene all the time and with a HEAVY HP120 tank. Also, he has a wild hibiscus print on his wings which is just so "you" girl!

 

[cool_hardware52]

Tobin,

Walter understood what you didn't - that you didn't answer my questions. You weren't listening to me.

Threads proceed in a sequential fashion. I may not see or read every post that has occurred between the last time I read a thread and the next time I visit. If you have specific questions you'd like me to address I'd suggest using PM, email, or Post in the DSS forum. I try but I won't always see or read every post. If I solicit questions from you it's pretty safe assume I missed it when you first asked, my apologies.

This thread was started by another (female) SB member, and I tried to answer her concerns.

Although I appreciate your concern about my tanks being too big for my current bc because it does not having enough lift - (that is why I'm changing), that's not what I was asking about. But since you did bring up my tanks. Walter is correct - the size (length) of the tank is very important to a small woman. I will not use the AL80 - they are too long and too heavy.

Al 80's are approximately the same weight, or actually lighter than some of the HP80's in use today. Length may be an issue, or may not be. I've had some very petite divers use a BP&W with an al 80. Part of it is tank position. In any event given the almost universal availability of al 80's it should not be hard to experiment. If a al 63 fits you better, great. I just find these tanks much less commonly available.

If your weighting is correct 8 lbs of lift could be (barely) enough. If you are diving with no exposure suit, and 80 cuft of gas, and are negative by the weight of the gas (~6 lbs) at the start of the dive, even 8 lbs should be enough to keep you at the surface. If it's not it's fair to assume you are overweighted.

What I did find interesting is that I am in the "Women's" Forum and the only time you answered in detail is when Walter asked. I felt like I was in a lds and the owner is addressing my husband like I'm not even there. I never buy from those stores.

I answer a lot of posts. This thread has at least two interwoven sets of questions, Silverlode's, and yours. Rest assured I'm willing to answer pretty much any question from any poster, if I see it and recognize it as unanswered.

You can see that I answered all of Silverlode's questions, and SHE is apparently also female. Any question from Walter is probably less likely to get an answer from me.

I still find it useful for those considering a Backplate and Wing to understand that a BP&W is not a conventional BC that happens to include a piece of Stainless Steel, but is different approach that offers benefits that can be largely negated by adding back many of the "features" of conventional BC's.

Tobin

 

[lil' castaway]

Hi Pete,

I hope you had a great New Year!

The problem with the ST80 is my current bc only has 8lb of lift. That's why I'm in need of another. I do need weight when I get chilly - like yesterday when I used my 5mil.

Since I never used a wing and have not seen many I did not know they don't come with shoulder pulls or integrated weights. This was my first inquiry into using a bp/w.

I don't know if Tobin's lack of answering my questions was a gender thing - it just felt like that to me. I asked the same questions a couple of times - no answer. Walter asked - flood of info.

The main issue is - I'm looking at replacing my bc. Either with a bp/w or a jacket. I was in this thread to get other women my size views on the bp/w. Since I don't have any experience with bp/w I had the following issues - Cost and features. What I like about my current bc - weight integration, pockets and shoulder pull dump. That's all. How it got to be about a vendor - I don't know.

MaryAnn

 

[Walter]

There are many solutions for moving tanks out of the water. If I have to shift a lot of bottles I use a cart. I don't really expect that a 97 lbs diver is going to carry two full 80's (total of about 80lbs) anywhere without some means of assistance. Do you?

Grasping at straws here. Why won't you try to look at things from a different (lower altitude) point of view. I'll admit I don't have the same issues as someone who is shorter than me, but I try to see things from their point of view. Go ahead, keep recommending tall tanks to short people.

When putting the BC on the tank, an AL 80 will either be bumping the diver in the back of the head, hitting their calfs or both. It does not matter if the BC is a vest, back inflate or BP/wing, the tank is the same length and causes the exact same issues for divers who are 5 feet tall.

This from some one who admits to knowing nothing of the gear I produce.

I know your gear will not shorten a tank nor will it make a diver taller.

I suspect you have a number of issues with hate.

Your suspicions are wrong.

No you are not, why don't we let the diver in question respond if they have unanswered questions.

Let's:

Even when I asked a few times - you did not listen, so I just stopped asking.

I've never said anything to the contrary. It is also quite true that AS A GROUP, one is far more likely to find a conventional BC that is inherently buoyant, and a BP&W that is not.

I completely agree.

I've provided a few examples of how to calculate weight requirements in this thread and many many many times in other threads on SB. Depending on the circumstances I have suggested a variety of means to achieve proper weighting. Often that includes a weight belt.

A weight belt is merely one solution. It's the solution I prefer, but many people disagree with us and prefer weight integration. From time to time, I notice a weight digging into my hip, I ignore it, move on and stop noticing it. In talking with other divers, I've discovered many, particularly, but not always women, do not stop noticing it. It changes from mild discomfort to major discomfort to actual pain. A weight belt is an excellent choice for many of us, but not for everyone.

This particular diver uses little or no exposure suit. That combined with negative tanks leads to being over weighted without any other ballast. I'm at a lost to understand why that fact causes you to question my abilities or motives.

This particular diver dives without an exposure suit from time to time, but usually wears either a 3/2 or a 5 mm wet suit.

No, there is no shoulder dump on our wings. Somehow our users manage to struggle along without such, as do the majority of BP&W users.

Wouldn't it have been simple to state this up front instead of avoiding the issue?

Walter, get a life. You know nothing of our gear, yet based on a few posting in thread where I had the temerity to disagree, you now need to warn all others about doing business with me.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but other than me doubting your gear can shrink tanks or stretch divers, we haven't disagreed. I've merely been trying to get answers. I didn't warn others not to do business with you. I stated I wouldn't want to do business with someone who is so evasive to straight questions. I would much rather do business with someone who says, "I can't give you that. This is why...." than with someone who ignores questions.

Show me any manufacturer who has been as consistently willing to discuss the features of their gear here in public. Our website also provides a great deal of information regarding our gear. I've never dodged any question.

There are a few, Zeagle comes immediately to mind. If you have never dodged a question, then you have not listened to the questions. Either way, the answers had to be pulled out of you.

Do you think I want to hoodwink people into buying something that they will be unhappy with? I want happy, satisfied customers.

I don't kinow what you want. I only see what you've said/not said in this thread and I can see how you could give that impression.

I will personally vouch for Tobin. He is one of the most helpful people I know

Pete, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he's having a bad day, that avoiding questions is unsual and he is usually helpful.