deedeediver
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I just checked out the nautilus lifeline,,, this is an awesome piece of equipment to have! It is so versatile, $299 is worth it considering if you had an emergency and were without it. Thanks So much Doc
Bonaire emergency at 65 ft
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I just checked out the nautilus lifeline,,, this is an awesome piece of equipment to have! It is so versatile, $299 is worth it considering if you had an emergency and were without it. Thanks So much Doc
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I would be very concerned about this diver going in the water again , without knowing what caused the problem.
If it was exhaustion as was suggested, then I would suggest they run at least a stress test, and better still, a VO2 max test, to determine the aerobic power this person can comfortably handle....
When you know how much oxygen can be processed per pound/kg of body weight...you can see if this diver is at an "average" ability to handle the demands of scuba, or below average, or dangerously, catastrophically below the average...
Given the severity of this incident, and knowing is was not heart failure....the aerobic capacity would seem like the next best thing to become aware of.
Does he walk at least a mile a day, or his 10,000 steps as is the current fitbit rage....or ride a bike?
Doing nothing catches up with people.
If it was exhaustion as was suggested, then I would suggest they run at least a stress test, and better still, a VO2 max test, to determine the aerobic power this person can comfortably handle....
When you know how much oxygen can be processed per pound/kg of body weight...you can see if this diver is at an "average" ability to handle the demands of scuba, or below average, or dangerously, catastrophically below the average...
Given the severity of this incident, and knowing is was not heart failure....the aerobic capacity would seem like the next best thing to become aware of.
Does he walk at least a mile a day, or his 10,000 steps as is the current fitbit rage....or ride a bike?
Doing nothing catches up with people.
Crusingthedeep
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Hi Wildbill9,
Firstly, I am so happy to hear of the positive outcome. Your father was fortunate to have had a dive buddy, who was actually where he/she be, that is to say in close contact with their buddy. And, as a matter of comment the difib and the O2 kits at DFB are all top notch.
I am however confused on the rescue itself and perhaps yu can shed a little light on this for me.
You mention, I continually tapped the purge button on his regulator during the accent to ensure there was positive air flow and he would not have to struggle for air.
It is this part that has me confused. Generally, applying positive air flow to a diver is done with 100% 02 on the surface, and is only performed by those who are either in the medical industry that are trained to do this practice, or by those who are 'advanced trained' in 02 applications.
By providing a diver, in a semi conscious state at depth, with the equivalent of ventilation's to the lungs, this could lead to arterial gas embolism (AGE), caused by the expansion of respiratory gases during accent (or by breath holding). Also, it was mentioned so that the diver did not have to struggle for air, which in my past experiences is something that the diver had only been able to tell me once they were topside.
Please understand that I mean no disrespect by your commendable actions, I only make the comment because others reading this on this forum may interpret this as the correct protocol and part of what this forum does is promote safe diving practices.
Other than a few technical dives that I have done, where a few things did not go as planned (diver switched to the wrong gas) etc, or an underlying medical issue, not known at the time of diving, or an incident of diving deeper than permitted MOD's, I have only seen, once, similar signs of a diver that your father seemed to experience, confused shaking etc (not caused by cold, or the earlier reasons). Turned out, it was caused by the diver opening the tank valve all the way open before the dive and then turning it the valve back too far towards the closed position, we first suspected a reg issue. The diver received enough air to dive at shallow depths but not at depths due to the change in ambient pressures. Anyway, very happy to hear that your Father is doing well and hope that he makes a full recovery. Also, and I think I can speak for many here on this forum, we hope that the two of you are soon back in the water. You sound like a good and attentive dive buddy - wish they all were.
---------- Post added May 12th, 2015 at 10:29 PM ----------
RJP,
With your dive background, as you have indicated, I must say I am surprised by your comment. The purpose for the AED and O2 kits at DFB locations were put into place, for the most part, for the required check out dives. The equipment in place all work, are checked regularly on a schedule, are made very visible, and the staff are trained to use either or. This equipment has however proved beneficial in circumstances that did not involve divers. To suggest or to imply that this idea approaches zero in practicality in Bonaire is zero in Bonaire is, well absurd, perhaps you would like to tell those who have needed these services. Now, before you chose to dis me, like you have to wwguy, who I think did offer some good advise, I do speak with some experience, I have personally used this equipment, together with DiveFriend's staff, and no I do not work for DiveFriends.
I live on island and for many years. This is a service that is not required yet DiveFriends does, and at a significant cost. Seems your solution rather then offering sound advise, is 'I'll be in the water' - Really, this is the wise words of an Instructor, not the way I teach it. Sorry, seems like your loosing credibility, by more than one on this forum. Please if you have valuable input, please share it, if not and you are only dissing other then don't - seems to me that is a part of the terms of service.
Firstly, I am so happy to hear of the positive outcome. Your father was fortunate to have had a dive buddy, who was actually where he/she be, that is to say in close contact with their buddy. And, as a matter of comment the difib and the O2 kits at DFB are all top notch.
I am however confused on the rescue itself and perhaps yu can shed a little light on this for me.
You mention, I continually tapped the purge button on his regulator during the accent to ensure there was positive air flow and he would not have to struggle for air.
It is this part that has me confused. Generally, applying positive air flow to a diver is done with 100% 02 on the surface, and is only performed by those who are either in the medical industry that are trained to do this practice, or by those who are 'advanced trained' in 02 applications.
By providing a diver, in a semi conscious state at depth, with the equivalent of ventilation's to the lungs, this could lead to arterial gas embolism (AGE), caused by the expansion of respiratory gases during accent (or by breath holding). Also, it was mentioned so that the diver did not have to struggle for air, which in my past experiences is something that the diver had only been able to tell me once they were topside.
Please understand that I mean no disrespect by your commendable actions, I only make the comment because others reading this on this forum may interpret this as the correct protocol and part of what this forum does is promote safe diving practices.
Other than a few technical dives that I have done, where a few things did not go as planned (diver switched to the wrong gas) etc, or an underlying medical issue, not known at the time of diving, or an incident of diving deeper than permitted MOD's, I have only seen, once, similar signs of a diver that your father seemed to experience, confused shaking etc (not caused by cold, or the earlier reasons). Turned out, it was caused by the diver opening the tank valve all the way open before the dive and then turning it the valve back too far towards the closed position, we first suspected a reg issue. The diver received enough air to dive at shallow depths but not at depths due to the change in ambient pressures. Anyway, very happy to hear that your Father is doing well and hope that he makes a full recovery. Also, and I think I can speak for many here on this forum, we hope that the two of you are soon back in the water. You sound like a good and attentive dive buddy - wish they all were.
---------- Post added May 12th, 2015 at 10:29 PM ----------
RJP,
With your dive background, as you have indicated, I must say I am surprised by your comment. The purpose for the AED and O2 kits at DFB locations were put into place, for the most part, for the required check out dives. The equipment in place all work, are checked regularly on a schedule, are made very visible, and the staff are trained to use either or. This equipment has however proved beneficial in circumstances that did not involve divers. To suggest or to imply that this idea approaches zero in practicality in Bonaire is zero in Bonaire is, well absurd, perhaps you would like to tell those who have needed these services. Now, before you chose to dis me, like you have to wwguy, who I think did offer some good advise, I do speak with some experience, I have personally used this equipment, together with DiveFriend's staff, and no I do not work for DiveFriends.
I live on island and for many years. This is a service that is not required yet DiveFriends does, and at a significant cost. Seems your solution rather then offering sound advise, is 'I'll be in the water' - Really, this is the wise words of an Instructor, not the way I teach it. Sorry, seems like your loosing credibility, by more than one on this forum. Please if you have valuable input, please share it, if not and you are only dissing other then don't - seems to me that is a part of the terms of service.
deco_martini
Contributor
Dive Incidents are sometimes like Pitbulls. "He was always gentle as a puppy until one day there was an attack".
This is one of the things I love about Bonaire. There is no pressure to dive deep and hit a marker. Most of the best things to see are above 80 feet. You can dive shallow, have a good time, and and a good chance of recovery if the rare unforeseen does happen.
Glad your father is okay.
Remember kids, don't feel cheated if you don't hit 100 feet. You're just sucking air in Bonaire if you do. (Hilma aside, and even then; it's skippable after 1 dive).
This is one of the things I love about Bonaire. There is no pressure to dive deep and hit a marker. Most of the best things to see are above 80 feet. You can dive shallow, have a good time, and and a good chance of recovery if the rare unforeseen does happen.
Glad your father is okay.
Remember kids, don't feel cheated if you don't hit 100 feet. You're just sucking air in Bonaire if you do. (Hilma aside, and even then; it's skippable after 1 dive).
Ok, just read this. Someone please correct me if wrong but what you are describing is positive pressure ventilations and I don't think a scuba regulator can do this, at depth or on the surface. There is no way to make an adequate seal around the mouthpiece. The mouthpiece on a regulator requires an active seal by the user. I think excess pressure will just force air out of the mouth.
But then I wonder, if there was a face mask made to fit a standard regulator, could it then be used at the surface to provide manually supplied ventilations? Would the pressure provided by a standard scuba regulator be appropriate to use for positive pressure ventilation. Sure, it wouldn't be 100% O2 but better than no air, especially if nitrox?
Just thinking out loud...
A scuba second stage can not provide positive pressure ventilation. The exhalation/exhaust valve prevents any sort of pressure buildup. So it's not even that the lip seal will prevent positive pressure buildup, it's the very design of the apparatus. Pressing the purge would make sure that any water that got in past the semi-conscious diver's lips would be purged out and not choked on I suppose. While the benefit would be minimal, and likely not worth slowing down to do, it's not entirely without merit.
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Crusingthedeep
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uncfnp
I like the way you think, and that you stopped to think about the process. Yes indeed, most of the excess pressure would in fact come out at the mouth; provided however, that the airway is completely restricted. We are, as mentioned, speaking to a diver that is in a semi conscious state, who from what I read was still breathing on his own. As such, it can and is considered positive pressure (it is clearly neither ambient, or negative pressure when the purge valve is depressed). I will e-mail you outside the forum to discuss later, we know each other well
I like the way you think, and that you stopped to think about the process. Yes indeed, most of the excess pressure would in fact come out at the mouth; provided however, that the airway is completely restricted. We are, as mentioned, speaking to a diver that is in a semi conscious state, who from what I read was still breathing on his own. As such, it can and is considered positive pressure (it is clearly neither ambient, or negative pressure when the purge valve is depressed). I will e-mail you outside the forum to discuss later, we know each other well
:shocked2:uncfnp
...//... I will e-mail you outside the forum to discuss later, we know each other well
Welcome to Scubaboard!
Crusingthedeep
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Hi jwelburn, and thank you for your comment.
Yes agreed about the lack of ability for a reg to produce 'positive pressure' as you describe. While it may sound like splitting hairs this was however why it was said 'positive air flow', and there is of course a difference.
Also, with a reg being purged it can produce a higher volume of air than just comes out of the exhaust valves, some air of course comes out the mouthpiece. This is, partly, why we learn to breathe from a free flowing regulator, without the regulator in the mouth.
Again, the discussion is about a diver who is breathing and does not have an unobstructed air way, since the diver was breathing. Accordingly, should a diver be in the process of an accent, either own his or her own, or with the help of a dive buddy, as was in this case, and the diver is in the process of inhaling the regulator most certainly will produce a positive air flow to the lungs.
The exhaust ports, on a normally functioning reg, will only come into play when the divers either exhales or if the regulator mouth piece is obstructed by some means.
As for purging out the water, this holds true for the water that has accumulated within the reg.
If the diver has water in his or her mouth the act of depressing the purge will not force the water out of the mouth space back into the reg and out of the exhaust ports. This has the potential to force water into the lungs. Thus the action of purging a reg on a distressed diver is not advised. Let's think back to Rescue class training and to the cautionary statements about not pressing the purge button while bringing a distressed diver to the surface and to the reasons behind them.
So, the benefit is not minimal but indeed potentially dangerous.
I hope these comments better qualify and better describe my earlier (and rushed comments)
Cheers and happy safe diving.
Yes agreed about the lack of ability for a reg to produce 'positive pressure' as you describe. While it may sound like splitting hairs this was however why it was said 'positive air flow', and there is of course a difference.
Also, with a reg being purged it can produce a higher volume of air than just comes out of the exhaust valves, some air of course comes out the mouthpiece. This is, partly, why we learn to breathe from a free flowing regulator, without the regulator in the mouth.
Again, the discussion is about a diver who is breathing and does not have an unobstructed air way, since the diver was breathing. Accordingly, should a diver be in the process of an accent, either own his or her own, or with the help of a dive buddy, as was in this case, and the diver is in the process of inhaling the regulator most certainly will produce a positive air flow to the lungs.
The exhaust ports, on a normally functioning reg, will only come into play when the divers either exhales or if the regulator mouth piece is obstructed by some means.
As for purging out the water, this holds true for the water that has accumulated within the reg.
If the diver has water in his or her mouth the act of depressing the purge will not force the water out of the mouth space back into the reg and out of the exhaust ports. This has the potential to force water into the lungs. Thus the action of purging a reg on a distressed diver is not advised. Let's think back to Rescue class training and to the cautionary statements about not pressing the purge button while bringing a distressed diver to the surface and to the reasons behind them.
So, the benefit is not minimal but indeed potentially dangerous.
I hope these comments better qualify and better describe my earlier (and rushed comments)
Cheers and happy safe diving.
Crusingthedeep
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Hi uncfnp, while separate from this forum, we did e-mail one another and had a brief discussion respecting the above (as we know one another) I never addressed your question about a face mask made to fit a standard scuba reg. I am not aware of one that fits onto a reg (which I thought it might) but there is another attachment that fits on to LP hose, which is ideal for divers using enriched air, or a high deco mix, such as in technical diving, which you are now doing. I decided to share the link here rather than just sending you a personal e-mail, for the benefit of other readers. Have a look at the link, this would be a good option for shore diving in Bonaire. Home. I have seen these for sale, in Bonaire, at 'Your Scuba Store"
Cheers from Sunny Bonaire and wish the two of you were here!!!!
Cheers from Sunny Bonaire and wish the two of you were here!!!!
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