Bonaire Crime - Our experience - Looking for input to share

[oldschoolto]

I wish they could be better at it... (Government and police) But, the fact is this type of crime (as you know) is always so low on the list of money and resources in all countries. I don't like the home envision crime that has picked up in the last year or so... But again, This has more to do with the drug problem... I think the armed robbery at the Chinese store was a wake up to a lot of people.. The police solved it in a week I think.. But, till you can address the low wages and lack of jobs along with the high number of people doing drugs... It's not going anywhere... Putting people in jail and even cutting off their hands or public flogging does not seem to work.. A better standard of living and hope for a better life will help..

Jim......

 

[Pedroinspain]

OK, let us see how true these anecdotal "my area has more crime than Bonaire" are, using Geogia, USA as an example (since Atlanta was specifically mentioned)

I'd happily bet that crime on Bonaire is actually very low, any survey here is anecdotal at best. And that some of the theft is tourist on tourist.

Anecdotal? That is rather presumptuous ... is that based on "I bet"? I object to my studies being called 'anecdotal'. So, let us not bet, but rather use cold clinical hard data.
Go here for the survey (if you can read Dutch, e.g. Vermogen = Property; Violensia or geweld = Violent): http://politiecn.com/images/stories/20160309_CRIMINALITEITSCIJFERS BONAIRE 2015 DEF.PDF Check the two types of break-ins of vehicles. Check the months in which they peak. Draw a conclusion. There is nothing anecdotal about that at all (references are all in Dutch)

[Same data reference as above] In 2011 the Bonaire population was 15823. Total 'property' (break-ins; theft etc) crimes - 1402 = 8861 incidents per 100 000 of population. For violent crimes the figure was 1567 / 100 000.

Now let's look at high-crime Atlanta/Georgia: 2011 - property crimes - 3259 / 100 000; Violent - 365 / 100 000 (nothing anecdotal - figures from Georgia Bureau of Investigation web site.

Fact-based conclusion: The lovely happy people of Bonaire commit 2.7 times as much property crimes as do the Georgians, and 4.3 times as many violent crimes.
-------------------------------

And I am going to expand of the topic even further, because after much research and correspondence in trying to understand the problem and seek a solution, I am disappointed by the 'anecdotal' remark and the unsubstantiated "facts" provided in rebuttal by the apologists.

1) Email responses to this thread
Private organisation replies to email - 13 out of 25
Police/administration replies - 0 out of 6 (other than one "I am forwarding ...", EXACTLY the same as that which 'salth2owannabe' received)
= Bonaire authorities couldn't give a crap about tourists. Hard data. Nothing anecdotal

2) When Antilleans (Bonaireans are Antilleans) move to the Netherlands, they are the highest-crime group in the country, beating Turks, the Dutch and Surinamees into also-rans, possibly matched only by young Moroccans. Once they have been subjected to the Dutch culture for a few years their crime rate drops markedly. Conclusion? When subjected to decent public discipline and peer pressure, they learn to behave. [example: http://www.eur.nl/english/news/the_issue/issuearchive/2010/issue_2010_38/]

3) Why can't the same happen on the island? A debate about the problem in 2010 concluded that the alarming rise in criminality on the island was due to drugs - both trafficking and funding own-use. Poverty was a secondary issue. The reason for the failure of the legal system was the 'zelfredsisteem' - or 'save our own people'. http://siteresources.worldbank.org/INTHAITI/Resources/CaribbeanC&VChapter7.pdf

Can we draw some conclusions about the astonishingly high crime rate on Bonaire from all that --- non-anecdotal, of course. Please let us know what yours are.

 

[oldschoolto]

OK, let us see how true these anecdotal "my area has more crime than Bonaire" are, using Geogia, USA as an example (since Atlanta was specifically mentioned)


Anecdotal? That is rather presumptuous ... is that based on "I bet"? I object to my studies being called 'anecdotal'. So, let us not bet, but rather use cold clinical hard data.
Go here for the survey (if you can read Dutch, e.g. Vermogen = Property; Violensia or geweld = Violent): http://politiecn.com/images/stories/20160309_CRIMINALITEITSCIJFERS BONAIRE 2015 DEF.PDF Check the two types of break-ins of vehicles. Check the months in which they peak. Draw a conclusion. There is nothing anecdotal about that at all (references are all in Dutch)

[Same data reference as above] In 2011 the Bonaire population was 15823. Total 'property' (break-ins; theft etc) crimes - 1402 = 8861 incidents per 100 000 of population. For violent crimes the figure was 1567 / 100 000.

Now let's look at high-crime Atlanta/Georgia: 2011 - property crimes - 3259 / 100 000; Violent - 365 / 100 000 (nothing anecdotal - figures from Georgia Bureau of Investigation web site.

Fact-based conclusion: The lovely happy people of Bonaire commit 2.7 times as much property crimes as do the Georgians, and 4.3 times as many violent crimes.
-------------------------------

And I am going to expand of the topic even further, because after much research and correspondence in trying to understand the problem and seek a solution, I am disappointed by the 'anecdotal' remark and the unsubstantiated "facts" provided in rebuttal by the apologists.
1) Email responses to this thread
Private organisation replies to email - 13 out of 25
Police/administration replies - 0 out of 6 (other than one "I am forwarding ...", EXACTLY the same as that which 'salth2owannabe' received)
= Bonaire authorities couldn't give a crap about tourists. Hard data. Nothing anecdotal

2) When Antilleans (Bonaireans are Antilleans) move to the Netherlands, they are the highest-crime group in the country, beating Turks, the Dutch and Surinamees into also-rans, possibly matched only by young Moroccans. Once they have been subjected to the Dutch culture for a few years their crime rate drops markedly. Conclusion? When subjected to decent public discipline and peer pressure, they learn to behave. [example: http://www.eur.nl/english/news/the_issue/issuearchive/2010/issue_2010_38/]

3) Why can't the same happen on the island? A debate about the problem in 2010 concluded that the alarming rise in criminality on the island was due to drugs - both trafficking and funding own-use. Poverty was a secondary issue. The reason for the failure of the legal system was the 'zelfredsisteem' - or 'save our own people'. http://siteresources.worldbank.org/INTHAITI/Resources/CaribbeanC&VChapter7.pdf

Can we draw some conclusions about the astonishingly high crime rate on Bonaire from all that --- non-anecdotal, of course. Please let us know what yours are.

I'm not going to waste anymore of my time with you or this thread... PLEASE... Don't go back to Bonaire.... We will not miss you... I don't know what your beef is... And at this point, I could careless...

DOOR..... Jim..

 

[scubadada]

Hard to argue when confronted with facts. There's more crime on Bonaire than some are willing to admit. So... you either accept reality and go enjoy the diving on Bonaire (I've been thrice and would like to return) or you skip Bonaire and go someplace else. This has always been the conclusion on the Bonaire crime threads, it just takes a long time to get there, over and over again

My wife and I spent 2 weeks in Egypt in early February. I'm going back for 2 weeks of liveaboard next week. Many people express that I am nuts to go to Egypt. Sometimes you take a calculated risk to enjoy the benefits or miss out entirely. Any place can be unsafe these days, Paris or Brussels for instance. Do all you can to stay safe but don't let fear paralyze you.

 

[Pedroinspain]

I'm not going to waste anymore of my time with you or this thread... PLEASE... Don't go back to Bonaire.... We will not miss you... I don't know what your beef is... And at this point, I could careless...

DOOR..... Jim..

Sorry that facts annoy you. I find them useful.

 

[scubadada]

Sorry that facts annoy you.

Hey Pedroinspain,

I think you jumped the gun here or misunderstood my comments. I was giving you credit for supplying the facts here. Easy to see why you may be touchy, you're significantly outnumbered in this discussion.

Good diving, Craig

 

[Pedroinspain]

Hey Pedroinspain,

I think you jumped the gun here or misunderstood my comments. I was giving you credit for supplying the facts here. Easy to see why you may be touchy, you're significantly outnumbered in this discussion.

Good diving, Craig

Culpa mea, Scubadada, I misclicked the reply. Thanks for pointing it out. I have fixed it. Also thanks for respecting verifiable facts above subjective emotions, and supporting me in my attempt to open the "favour-our-own-people" can of worms.

Gracias

P.

P.S. I couldn't agree more about the Red Sea. The fish life is double in variety and significantly more dense (better coral health) compared to the Caribbean. It is our next tropical vacation destination. Then in late 2017 it is back to S.E. Asia for cheap accommodation, cheap topside costs, excellent snorkelling and astonishing diving. It just requires a sense of adventure, and you have that.

I have 2 problems with the Red Sea: 1) In places the plastic pollution is alarming, and 2) in the cheaper accommodation don't eat any eggs that are not well done (cooked) - i.e. no fried eggs with runny yolks. PS: A day trip to Luxor from Marsa Alam or Hurghada is well worth it. On your live-aboard you should have zero issues with either.

 

[Lorenzoid]

. . .
[Same data reference as above] In 2011 the Bonaire population was 15823. Total 'property' (break-ins; theft etc) crimes - 1402 = 8861 incidents per 100 000 of population. For violent crimes the figure was 1567 / 100 000.

Now let's look at high-crime Atlanta/Georgia: 2011 - property crimes - 3259 / 100 000; Violent - 365 / 100 000 (nothing anecdotal - figures from Georgia Bureau of Investigation web site.

Fact-based conclusion: The lovely happy people of Bonaire commit 2.7 times as much property crimes as do the Georgians, and 4.3 times as many violent crimes. . . .

Minor point, but please don't conflate the city of Atlanta and the state of Georgia. Your numbers above (3259 per 100,000 and 365 per 100,000) are for the entire state of Georgia, which is largely rural. The population density in Atlanta is much greater than anywhere else in Georgia. Atlanta is an island of crime in a sea of relative tranquility.

My point was simply that I personally, based on how I have come to feel from living here in Atlanta, feel safer in Bonaire, despite the crime I know exists there--not just the petty crime but also burglaries, drug crime, violent crime, etc. Based on a weeklong stay there once a year, I think the odds are high that I will not be a victim of anything. Some friends from Atlanta were victims of burglary at their rental home in Sabadeco a couple of years ago. They didn't make a big deal about it, which I thought was curious, but perhaps understandable, given how desensitized to crime we Atlantans can be.

 

[scubadada]

...PS: A day trip to Luxor from Marsa Alam or Hurghada is well worth it...

Our trip in February included time in Cairo, with the rest being on a boat between Luxor and Aswan. We also made it to Abu Simbel. My next visit will be all diving, 2 wonderful weeks of it

 

[drrich2]

"Police/administration replies - 0 out of 6 (other than one "I am forwarding ...", EXACTLY the same as that which 'salth2owannabe' received)
= Bonaire authorities couldn't give a crap about tourists. Hard data. Nothing anecdotal"

Issuing written (including e-mail) formal statements to the public, including people likely to share such publicly (e.g.: on forums), is something many bureaucratic organizations will shy away from. Even if some in the organization agree with you. Such a statement, released publicly, can be used against them later - such as 'Police admit rampant crime problem! People baffled; unable to get crime under control!'

"Fact-based conclusion: The lovely happy people of Bonaire commit 2.7 times as much property crimes as do the Georgians, and 4.3 times as many violent crimes."

I suspect a number of other Caribbean & Central American destinations would also have much higher than typical U.S. crime rates. A recent thread about Belize, including the dismal odds of a murderer being caught, comes to mind.

"2) When Antilleans (Bonaireans are Antilleans) move to the Netherlands, they are the highest-crime group in the country, beating Turks, the Dutch and Surinamees into also-rans, possibly matched only by young Moroccans. Once they have been subjected to the Dutch culture for a few years their crime rate drops markedly. Conclusion? When subjected to decent public discipline and peer pressure, they learn to behave."

Perhaps better opportunity might also be a factor?

Richard.