Big Bay Point Dive Flags

[Akona-matata]

Good Day,

I like the original post. Dive flags are a good idea(esp. for rebreathers). I regularly dive Simcoe by boat and if my big bruce anchor and 10 feet of chain dont break your neck you'll love it when I set the anchor. Also it is shallow just off the Big Bay dock, my boat's draft is 3 feet without 8 tanks and gear for four. We gear up on the dock to save time. What about those boaters who use a grappeling hook to catch the wreck, that could suck.

I do agree dive flags are a pain. I fly the 2 required flags on the boat and bring a float. Alot of idiot boaters are attracted and come in for a closer look. Shore support and a practise flare gun works well.

The townships can find all sorts of stupid reasons to ban scuba diving from shore. Yes it is possible and even the beautiful Morrison was off limits to shore diving for many years. (Back in the seventies when the they smashed her installing the pipes). The towns own the shore and several meters of water.

I suggest that the BarrieéYork Region Police, setup some dive flags and sit back with their jetskis and make some money.

 

[ScubaBob1]

Not to be rude or anything, but are you disabled in some fashion?

DR, it's a high traffic area and relatively shallow ( just deep enough for a giant stride) at the end of the dock to a good distance out. I agree with Diver Eh on the need for flags , no matter your ability or equipment in that area. Is your mellon worth less than a flag?
Unfortunately, there are also some yahoos in that area on PWC's that also like to use them as turning flags. Rare, but does happen but with the new boating certs coming out, this may be even rarer as these twits become better informed. So...while it's true that you may be attracting some idiots with the use of a flag, you'll probably be deterring far more by actually employing one.
Let's put it this way. Do seat belts save lives?
Additionally, since the area (the dock) is no longer a federal property but a local municipal one, if the town honchos want to give the boot to divers, they certainly can pass a by law prohibiting divers from the area, just like Barrie town council adopted a no PWC area off Centennial Beach ( to accommodate swimmers on the beach AND divers on the J.C. Morrison). If Innisfil council feels that they may be better served to save their tax payers potential liability from accidents involving divers then that's actually within their mandate as elected officials. If they want dive flags, they're within their right to ask they be displayed.
Ohh, by the by, why get rude with personal remarks?

 

[crispos]

I called the OPP to check what laws govern the dive surface buoy/flag both from the diver's obligation to float one, and the boaters obligation to stay clear.

Yes I have heard there is no law in Ontario, but the Canada Shipping Act was recently updated and the regs are still being finalized before it goes to Royal Assent. So I also emailed them, no answer yet.

The unit commander of OPP S&R called me yesterday and said that the boaters were governed by the CSA but there is no law affecting divers obligation. But when I asked he could not reference the proper section.

He mentioned the requirement to float an Alpha flag. So I asked are you sure you aren't talking about the requirement to steer clear of a boat with restricted maneuverability? What about divers without a boat? Then he got impatient and tried to blow me off. I told him we had a brewing problem at BBP and we needed to get some definitive answers.

For the record, he also said it was within the mandate of Barrie Police Services to enforce divers dragging floats. Again, could not be specific about the statute or mandate.

Friends, I am interested to get a law requiring boat and watercraft operators to steer clear of the red and white dive flag into the CSA regulations before the Act goes to Royal Assent! As to divers dragging floats, I know it is a "drag" sometimes but agree with Brad that it is the best thing. Not to mention incredible liability if the victim is a student.

To show scuba diver solidarity in the face of this attempt to drive us from BBP, I ask you to participate in my Splash for Trash in front of the Morrison on Saturday, September 15

We will set the floats at 9am and registration starts at 10am and we want to have floats and flags marking the corner of the search area so that it is clear to all watercraft operators where we are. Please I need your help if you have a float come and set it and then collect trash - the more the better. I will have goodie bags on hand for everyone.

The event was kindly announced at the Barrie City Council meeting last night. Dive Central of Barrie is also participating and you can get your tank fills and other gear there.

Please come and join us so that we can make sure we Ontario divers are seen and heard!

 

[ScubaBob1]

I doubt that the Barrie Police have any charges that they could throw at a diver not dragging a flag. Obstructing a waterway?
Common sense ought to prevail in this instance of BBP anyway. It's a dock. Boaters use docks so do divers. It's just a matter of time before there's another meeting of the two at that location.
I stopped by the online boating course manual site for the new boater's cert today. They do mention the dive flag in it but simply state :
"A diving buoy is used to mark areas where scuba or other
diving is in progress. This buoy is white in colour. It carries a
red flag not less than 50 cm square with a white diagonal stripe
extending from the tip of the hoist to the bottom of the fly. If
the buoy is equipped with a light, it operates on a flash cycle, (F1)
4s, (i.e. flashing once every 4 seconds).
That's it. That's all that boaters apparently need to know about the subject.
I'm not entirely convinced of the need to mandate all dives be flagged everywhere though. Common sense approach but then again, common sense can be a rare commodity in the weekend sailor running on beer and pretzels. I'd most definitely like to see changes in the boating act to better train recreational boaters or at least better test their skills in this regard and set into law, the recognized safety zone. It may reduce the number of accidental "meetings" but will never eliminate them. If everyone obeyed traffic signals on the road, there would be no collisions at intersections, would there?
Common sense. If there are boats about, flag it.

 

[aquaoren]

Common sense ought to prevail in this instance of BBP anyway. It's a dock. Boaters use docks so do divers. It's just a matter of time before there's another meeting of the two at that location.

In this case, maybe the dive shops that are running courses at this location should overthink again whether they want to continue doing it at such a dangerous location.
Why risk the lives of someone who is inexperienced, has less than desirable buoyancy control and just trusts that the dive shop will protect them because they are not aware of the risks or simply do not know any better?
We can all agree that a dive flag does not make you involnurable as the past has shown.

Besides, anyone who thinks that the problems at BBP are caused by dive flags (or the lack of them in this case) is naive at best.

 

[ScubaBob1]

In this case, maybe the dive shops that are running courses at this location should overthink again whether they want to continue doing it at such a dangerous location.

Then shops may as well stop taking their students to ANY Open Water area that contains a boat. It doesn't matter much if it's a seasoned diver or a student. The hull will bite either's head and I seriously doubt that even a newbie isn't thinking " Where the hell's that whining sound coming from?", upon ascending. Trusting the other party to know the generally accepted rules, is what seems to be causing these collisions.
In the case of that latest fatality, it certainly was that factor that killed her, not because she was a student and part of a class.

 

[aquaoren]

No offense but IMO, you're wrong in couple of points.

1) Yes, there is always a risk when boats are around but running basic courses in shallow water near a dock is taking on an additional, unnecessary, risk.
It actually borders on negligence and complete disregard to the safety of your students.
I don't know about you but I tend to try and keep away from docks.
As you've said:

It's a dock. Boaters use docks so do divers. It's just a matter of time before there's another meeting of the two at that location.

2) It does matter whether it's a student, who is all excited about finally going diving in open water, has the drills in mind, is pretty preoccupied with the task loading and has trouble staying below the surface because of lack of buoyancy control or whether it is an experienced and relaxed diver with a good situational awareness that has no trouble staying close to the bottom.

I think that someone who is busy with the task loading of the course, having dove not more than 4-5 times in open water will have trouble realizing at all what he's hearing underwater.

 

[ScubaBob1]

How can you possibly predict the stupid actions of another person?
In regards your point #1.:
The site has always been flagged, anytime I've been there, students or not. Common sense. Guess you've not dived the area in some time.
Regards point #2:
It goes from the deepest area of the lake to fairly shallow in mere meters with a stretch of 10 feet or less deep from that drop to the dock or to the adjacent beach. Your choices are to surface well out in deep water or make the swim. Either way, if some dolt is coming through with a baot and is ignorant of the flag, you're a target. Most divers flag off from the 30 foot depth there as it is mid way for those diving deep and those in the area between the dock and that flag. There WILL be another meeting of the two sports because you're BOUND to get another idiot boater that probably enjoys running red lights on the road too.
Students or experienced diver alike run the same risk here. Mud puppy it all you like with your perfect buoyancy control and you'll still get hit by a boater that has decided to ignore the flag. You also have the fishermen to contend with on the dock as well. Beach entry is an option, but guess where that is? Right beside the dock.
I've been party to overhearing quite a few dive outfits and their pre dive briefings at that location. Boat traffic has always been mentioned. What to do has always been mentioned. Other than that and having a sniper on shore to knock off boaters ignoring flags, what else can be done, other than what other posters have already mentioned?
Have ALL students cert in pool and then dump them into the real world at their own risk? I stand by the dive operators that use BBP as a training ground as it happens to be the best OVERALL site on that Lake for just about every course. The divers are trained enough to be responsible for themselves (for the most part other than the ten foot tall and bullet proof divers who with 500 + dives think they can make the Queen Mary move outta the way), it's the BOATERS in the area that need education.
What's next? Are you advocating that anyone that is below an airliner be held responsible for unnecessarily putting themselves at risk because of possible pilot error?
Diving has and always will be about manageable risk. You do what it takes to reduce it. The same applies in the BBP area.

 

[aquaoren]

Well, I guess that we'll have to agree to disagree as I see it completely differently but not going to waste my time arguing with you. Obviously, we're not going to get anywhere.

BTW and FYI, have been at BBP quiet few times and "mud puppied" my way back to shore, seen the props go above my team member and we all made it back to shore to survive another dive, so there is no need to try to be condescending as it doesn't give your point of view more validity.

Just one last question out of curiosity. Are you, in any way, affiliated with one of those shops that are running courses at this location? This would explain plenty.

 

[ScubaBob1]

No I 'm not either being condescending nor am I affiliated with any dive shop other than being a customer of the local shops. I also agree to disagree in your point that divers should stay out of the water in that site.