Best type of Pony Tank setup?

[Boogie711]

Yeah sure - maybe you, a NAUI instructor, could hit the surface from 90 feet on a POS Spare Air. Did you do a safety stop?

Now, can you imagine what would happen if the same situation happened with one of your students? Especially now that they're panicking? Now factor in the time required to extricate themselves from whatever crappy situation got them into trouble in the first place?

Spare Airs belong with Helicopter Pilots doing water rescues. They have NO business being on a Scuba Diver. As a matter of fact, as an instructor, I would think you would be even MORE opposed to them for just this reason.

 

[Doc Intrepid]

Zac3G...,

Did you have your question answered?

 

[Dive Source]

Yeah sure - maybe you, a NAUI instructor, could hit the surface from 90 feet on a POS Spare Air. Did you do a safety stop?

Now, can you imagine what would happen if the same situation happened with one of your students? Especially now that they're panicking? Now factor in the time required to extricate themselves from whatever crappy situation got them into trouble in the first place?

Spare Airs belong with Helicopter Pilots doing water rescues. They have NO business being on a Scuba Diver. As a matter of fact, as an instructor, I would think you would be even MORE opposed to them for just this reason.

Wow boogee didn't expect a personal attack like this, you certainly have strong feelings on the subject. I was adding my experiance actually using it and I agree that ponies are better, I just thought a little FYI might be usefull.

Do you have actual experiance with spare airs causing problems or is your response analytical? I actually decided to do this test as no one I knew had actually tried one. I know I used to say they were crap until I actually tried/tested it as I have "NO business" offering opinion without first hand knowledge. Your concerns are noted about me being an instructor and I try to be careful when posting things as I sign my name to them and I recognize my responsibility as a professional.

FYI - Here is how my test went.

Began by planning the excercise with my buddy at the surface and I also told the other divers on the boat what I was doing so no one would be alarmed, we had a normal dive then went back to the line. (BTW - my buddy was a very experianced diver not a student and this was a personal dive day)

Hit the line on the George T. Davie in Kingston ( approx 90 ft.), spit my reg out signalled OK to my buddy and then blowing little bubbles from my mouth (like we teach all the students) I retrieved the spare air from it's holster and put it in my mouth.and took two breaths.

I then grabbed my cobra dive computer to monitor my ascent rate and made my way up the line at the maximum speed I could without triggering the ascent alarm.

I stopped 10 ft below the surface and took my last breath ( it was now empty) and switched back to my main supply to do my safety stop as this was just a test and I didn't want to blow off a safety stop. I could have free ascended from 10 ft to the surface easily. BTW I won't tell you my SAC rate but I'm a big guy and I like my air.

Are spare airs a substitue for proper training and technique - Absolutely NOT and divers should never substitute gear for training or skill.

Are they better than Ponies - In most cases NO .

Will they do a safety stop - Not likely.

Can they bring you up in an emergency - YES if used correctly.

Travelling divers who are in 40-50 max water on a carribean reef often like them and my experiance was not too bad. That was my point nothing more.

 

[cdennyb]

I too, am a "recreational diver" of sorts. I've been recreationally diving for about 26 years now. When the 'spare air' unit came on to the market, I too was awe-struck at the possibility of such a small item actually making the difference between making it back to the surface and not. I was engaged with a sales associate at the spare air facility about how long the air lasts at 99' (ok, at 100' then). Doing the math for my panic stricken body sucking at 1.7 SAC I found myself with enough air for about 4 breaths at that depth. I didn't 'prepare' for the emergency accent, I had my buddy gently turn my reg off without my knowledge! I knew he was going to do it but I didn't know exactly when. We were skimming through some kelp and over some coral outcroppings and then I stopped to look down into a hole, BAM, I felt the air pull a little harder on my reg but dismissed it, I actually had forgot for a second that this was a drill and then I rrealized I didn't have any air. I was really paniced for a second too! That flash of adrenelin thru your body, the rush you feel, the flushed feeling you get on your skin, the whole "marry-ann"! So, I fumbled with the spare air holster, now actually really needing some air! and then finally got it out and the protective cap off. I did NOT start for the surface immediately, I found myself actually trying to access the situation and then instinctively trying to locate my buddy by turning around looking for him. By this time he was about 20' away and I got his attention. I was starting up, with an OOA emergency! Since this simulation was to simulate a solo OOA emergency, he was there to make sure I wasn't going to float upside down but that was it. I made it to about 75 feet! Now I was really out of AIR! I pulled the spare air out of my mouth, pulled up my G250 on the necklace and threw my hand back over my shoulder grabbing the valve and giving it a spin. Fresh air at last! That was an experience, let me tell you. That was the day that I retired the "scuba diver's friend in need" to the damn backyard pool. I now carry a 13 cuft pony with a seperate regulator rigged DIR. I gotta tell ya, those people who follow the WKPP method of rigging and outfitting have something of value to share, we just have to listen.
I'm not a techie diver, I'm a safe diver, and after 26 years of doing it kinda right, I'm not too old to learn a new way of doing it really right. You do what you want, it's your air...but me and my daughter, we have 7' pri hoses, matching reg units (easier to rebuild-less spare parts laying around) and we use BC's, not a ridgid backplate. We don't use argon for our drysuits, but we do have redundent regulators (at least I do on my double 80's) and she has double regs set up with her backup on a 24" hose hanging around her neck on surgical tubing. The WKPP crowd would probably tend to call us "strokes" at first, and the rec crowd would call us "tech wanna-bees" but the real fact is, we dive safe, comfortable, responsibly, and it's fun...and so far, we have returned from every dive to talk about it.
Please don't slam the WKPP group, I admire them for their 'cutting edge' contributions to the decompression diving programs, and I think it's our duty as divers in general to tactfully train any and all divers regardless of their ability or experience in any new method that keeps us ALL safe and out of the black newspaper articles. If you don't help the poorly trained or improperly outfitted diver change to the better/safer way, then you're also part of the problem.
Am I rambling on trying to act like a 'soapbox politition', I appologize. But I don't appologize for spreading the words of wisdom and personal experience. Take from my article posting what you want, if you don't see any value in my words then I guess you have everything figured out already and I admire you for it. If you learn even just one thing from my words, I've done my job.
Thank you for listening and reading. Safe diving and may all you new year dives be happy ones.

db (an old 48 yr old kid) and Jaimie (15 yrs old)

 

[diverlady]

Yeah sure - maybe you, a NAUI instructor, could hit the surface from 90 feet on a POS Spare Air. Did you do a safety stop?

Now, can you imagine what would happen if the same situation happened with one of your students? Especially now that they're panicking? Now factor in the time required to extricate themselves from whatever crappy situation got them into trouble in the first place?

Spare Airs belong with Helicopter Pilots doing water rescues. They have NO business being on a Scuba Diver. As a matter of fact, as an instructor, I would think you would be even MORE opposed to them for just this reason.

Whoa! That was a bit harsh Boogie. Brian was simply stating he believes there is a place for spare air in the diving world. He didn't say or imply they were better or preferred to ponies. He simply pointed out that they CAN get you to the surface when there is pretty much zero delay (I believe he said something like no time to mess around). That pretty much covered your point about extricating themselves from the crappy situation.

I for one am glad that Brian has taken the time to test out this type of equipment. At least when I have questions about it, I know that he's speaking from first-hand experience and not just what the manufacturer's brochure says or what he's "heard".

Me thinks if I had a 1st stage failure and had the choice of surfacing with Spare Air or no air, I'd be pretty happy to have the air although no doubting the fact a pony would be even better still. (Of course, I don't dive solo, so my buddy would actually be my air supply.)

I'm interested to hear about your personal experiences with Spare Air Boogie that has lead to such a severe opinion.

Diverlady

 

[Sean326]

I posted this on a diff. thread a while ago

I bought a 3 cuft. spare air and tried it last weekend....

My buddy and I went down to 95' and I simulated an OOA situation. I exhaled, took out my primary, took 20 seconds to simulate messing with my reg brought my backup reg to my mouth (but i didn't inhale). then i pulled out my spare air and started a CSA.

I tried to control my breathing safely, I didn't add air to my BC, and I kept an eye on my computer and kept my ascent rate at 100% to 120% I ran out of air at 35'.... good for about 4 breaths

If I was really out of air I probably would have been more agressive and dropped my belt but I also would have been more panicked. (it was just a fun test I wasn't going to risk getting hurt)

In summery I have turned my spare air over to my kids as a really cool pool toy and got a 19 cuft pony bottle.

For those of you who say having a backup does more harm than good...

1, most NJ dive boats require a completely seperate and redundant source, so it's either dive doubles with an isolation valve or have a pony.

2, In my life experience having a spare anything is better than not. a poster once wrote that having a backup makes you more likely to have an OOA situation well... I never thought that having a spare tire in my car made it more likely for me to get a flat

 

[Uncle Pug]

Scuba divers carrying a Spare Air demonstrate a lack of understanding.

 

[landfish]

why would anyone be against having a pony bottle?
a pony bottle is for emergency incase something goes wrong with your main tank or tanks in that fact.
wouldnt it be better to carry the biggest pony you could?
i use to use a 40, fortunatly never needed it but was there if i or anyone did.
you plan your dive with your main tank dont you or am i wrong here?
that is very interesting about the spare air thanks for sharing that with us

 

[Uncle Pug]

why would anyone be against having a pony bottle?

... before I give you mine.

 

[scubasean]

... before I give you mine.

Hmmmm....

1. Tendency to rely on the pony rather than do proper gas planning.
2. More things to keep working?
3. Less efficient in the water than a single with an octo?

Just guessing here...I've not been leaning towards using a pony, and don't intend to, but thought I'd take a stab at it.