Best regulator for tech and cave diving?

[Nemrod]

This information was form 2003 in a rodels regulator evaluation article. And i believe it ws generally speeking to air supplied by the first stage as opposed to the second stage. Thier point of the aspect for that comparison was if 2 high demand divers had to share air that the mk25 would supply from normal depths because ther was no single diver deteriation of air supply down to 200 ft. Basically commenting to your comment regarding to the "MONSTER FLOW RATE". In short the reg doesnt max its flow rate till past 200 ft. I do not recall the comments regarding the S600 in that article. The thought I tried to get across was that any reg will give you the air you need as a single diver but if you need to share air that the MK25 will more than handle it. I said that knowing that most likely there would never be 2 on one reg with a tech kit. The other thing about the article was that it implied that the mk25 could take a lot of degredation in performance before impacting the diver. As right or wrong as my comment was per your scrutiny the post is still worthy as to what aspects one should keep in mind when buying equipment of this type. Thank you for your corrections anyway.

The flow rate of all balanced, modern diaphragm or piston regulators is more than sufficient for two divers including my old MkV and Conshelf XIV first stages. A burst LP hose can empty a tank in a few minutes. Even at 200 feet two divers would not demand that kind of flow rate.

I tell you what, just for the fun of it, and I have done it, hook up some various first stages with out any hoses, all ports plugged but for one LP port and have a race. Same size tanks and same starting pressure, valves full on. They all empty really fast. Do you really think that the first stage is a restricting point for two divers even at 200 feet?

N

 

[ams511]

This information was form 2003 in a rodels regulator evaluation article.

I used to work in the magazine industry and can tell you from experience that advertising revenues do impact evaluations. I can also tell you that the people that write the articles are not engineers.

 

[halocline]

Thier point of the aspect for that comparison was if 2 high demand divers had to share air that the mk25 would supply from normal depths because ther was no single diver deteriation of air supply down to 200 ft. Basically commenting to your comment regarding to the "MONSTER FLOW RATE". In short the reg doesnt max its flow rate till past 200 ft.

As with most bits of scuba-industry-related hype, there is a bit of truth to the claim of increased flow rate affecting depth performance, but it's simply not relevant to any real-world diving scenario. As a first stage goes deeper, the demands on it increase because it has to flow more air to provide the depth-compensated higher IP. As first stages attempt to flow more air, the IP drop during demand increases, meaning if you were to take an IP gauge down to greater depth, you'd notice the needle dropping during heavy demand more and more. More IP drop does mean less total flow, and with an unbalanced 2nd stage, at least theoretically higher cracking effort. The MK25 is amazing in how little the IP drops even during heavy demand. It's just that even though lots of other 1st stages might experience the larger IP drop at, say 100 ft, there's still plenty of air to supply two second stages with divers hoovering. The lowly MK2 has a flow rate with 3000PSI supply of about 100 cft per minute. That's emptying an entire AL80 in less than one minute. The tank valve itself won't even come close to doing that. And with balanced 2nd stages most divers won't ever feel the larger IP drop, because the 2nd stage compensates for fluctuations in IP.

So while some of the stats are technically correct, there's very little if any real world value in them.

---------- Post added March 2nd, 2015 at 07:54 AM ----------

or tech and cave diving, is price really the primary consideration? You want TOP quality for this type of diving. Apeks and ScubaPro have long set the bar and are the ones that everyone attempts to copy. For me, get the original.

Sure, spend more, isn't your life worth it? Where's your self esteem, man?
That one just won't die.

Oh, if it's "original" you want, think about a mistral, or at least something by USD or Spirotechnique.

Sorry, no offense intended, it's just too easy to poke fun at statements like this. In some ways I agree in that I always use old SP regulators (except for my doublehose) but they're hardly pricey. I think I paid about $80 for my MK10/D300 that is my primary set for cave study. Money and reliability are not equated in scuba purchases. Money and hype, absolutely!

 

[SeaCobra]

Apeks have been getting phased out of the technical community for a while because parts kits are so hard to come by, same reason you don't see as many Scubapro's as you used to. When the knockoffs became very good quality, especially the Apeks, were half the price to buy, and you could buy the parts yourself without "knowing a guy who knows a guy", their marketshare to the tech market started dwindling.

The quality argument at this point is complete and utter bullsh!t, there's no marked difference in quality among the larger brands, and there is a lot of laurel resting going on at that level, so while price is not the primary consideration it is price/performance/quality, and at this point the Hog/DiveRite/Hollis etc which all come out of ODS are offering a bang up piece of kit for about half the cost of Apeks, so no, price isn't the consideration, but if I have to pay 2x for the Apeks regs, then can't buy the parts to service them myself because they're a bunch of raging cnts that want to pad the pockets of their dealers every two years with cost of service, then they won't get my business and I'll keep supporting the guys that are actually trying to push things forward. It really is a shame because they are putting out real quality stuff, but the price they're charging for it gives you no better quality, no better performance, and the fact that they lock parts kits down to authorized technicians working for an authorized dealer is complete bs *I'm an authorized Apeks tech but can't buy parts kits because I'm not currently employed by one of their dealers, SP is the same way, and there is no reason for it* I wish we had the consumer protection laws that some of the EU has in place where stuff like that would be illegal.

rant over, my apologies Jeff, but that is truly one of the most ignorant statements you can make about scuba gear

Sorry, sport, but you have your head in the sand. I've worked on those knock offs and have seen too many issues and failures to find them reliable. This, of course is just my personal experience. If you are ok with them, then by all means. I do not dive them, won't dive, nor will I have them in my store. There is a quality difference in the materials used, the machine tolerances, the quality control, etc.

Its just like anything in life, is a Ryobi tool the same quality as a Dewalt? No. Will the Ryobi meet your needs? Perhaps. When I was a professional contractor I did buy the occasional Ryobi, but I bought it knowing I would burn it up and toss it out.

 

[victorzamora]

Sorry, sport, but you have your head in the sand. I've worked on those knock offs and have seen too many issues and failures to find them reliable. This, of course is just my personal experience. If you are ok with them, then by all means. I do not dive them, won't dive, nor will I have them in my store. There is a quality difference in the materials used, the machine tolerances, the quality control, etc.

Its just like anything in life, is a Ryobi tool the same quality as a Dewalt? No. Will the Ryobi meet your needs? Perhaps. When I was a professional contractor I did buy the occasional Ryobi, but I bought it knowing I would burn it up and toss it out.

It's much more like refusing to drive a Honda but lauding Acura as the greatest ever. Same thing, different prices. I've worked on all of them and never seen more of one than another.

---------- Post added March 2nd, 2015 at 09:09 AM ----------

Another topic to mention when picking regs is environmental sealing. Piston regs can't practically be sealed. The ones that are are packed with $50 worth of lube. Diaphragm regs require no such packing and are very easy to environmentally seal. Sealed regs are all I'll dive.

 

[ams511]

Sorry, sport, but you have your head in the sand. I've worked on those knock offs and have seen too many issues and failures to find them reliable. This, of course is just my personal experience. If you are ok with them, then by all means.

I remember when they first came out there were complaints about them here and on TDS. Lately I haven't seen any complaints.

 

[NC Air Hog]

Dive Rite, Zeagle, HOG....

These are the names that come to mind when selecting an absolute BULLETPROOF Reg Set. While Atomic certainly has the best machining and finish of the sets, the price generally scares some away. Others, like myself, just do not like Piston 1st Stages. It is nothing more than a personal decision and has nothing to do with functionality for me.

Breaking them down a bit further:

Zeagle - Currently has Parts For Life. Many on here will tell you that this is an absolute scam. They are entitled to their opinion (no matter how wrong they are). These are the same folks who will tell you that actually sending your regulators in to have them serviced by industry technicians will auto-qualify you as the dumbest person alive and that you should just do it yourself. If you are into that sort of thing, I will gladly sell you the parts kits needed. The Flathead 7 and the Onyx Cold Water are perhaps the best first stages on the market today. There is a reason Fort Bragg purchased so many of them. They are easy to work on, and should never fail you provided you take care of them. Zeagle does not offer a reversible second stage to my knowledge, but that is easily solved with a 90 degree adapter if you are worried about it.

HOG - I have been diving the D2 for almost three years now (Stage bottles and Doubles configurations) and have never once had a problem out of it. Of course, I use my set to teach the HOG repair clinic as well, so it normally gets serviced 6 or 7 times each year, so there is that. The D2 is only available in a DIN system. You could add a yoke adapter if you feel the need for more recreational diving. The EDGE Epic is the Yoke version of the D2, but it has a silver finish on it. HOG currently has three different second stages to choose from. There is the HOG Classic, the HOG Zenith, and the Zenith reversible. The important factor in this is that the internal workings of the second stage are the exact same for all three. The reversible is what I use on my doubles set and despite many claiming it is just a flawed design, it has worked just fine in spite of it for me. Reversing the second stage itself may be challenging if you don't know what you are doing, but it is literally 2 parts that you need to keep track of. I cannot speak for everyone, but once I reverse a second stage, it pretty much stays that way. So, the concern related to switching it back and forth time and time again could be contested with that. Some do not like the design, which is fine. Just dive something else. After speaking to Jack about it, he is very open to the idea of coming out with a new reversible system. The company just does not see enough demand to dump another 10 to 20 thousand dollars into purchasing the molds needed and then production on top of that.

Dive Rite - The DR XT1 is a great 1st stage. Swivel and bottom port come standard along with environmental sealing. Din or yoke options available, and great service and warranty from the guys down in Florida. If you travel to the caves, you will see many with the Dive Rite gear, and for good reason. It is well made and lasts for years. The second stage is easy to reverse and can be ordered direct from the manufacture in a left or right fed configuration.

Across the board - Parts for life is a nice thing but not necessarily needed. If you want to service your own gear, go for it and just get the actual parts kits instead of hoping and praying the orings you put in there actually fit. If you can save $50 in parts each time you get your set serviced, that is like a free tank of gas. Each of these regulators are sealed, tested in caves / dives below 300 feet / inside wrecks and anything else you may think of. Each group backs their product with amazing warranties and will help you out any way they can. The best part is that the regulators are only one item for each of these manufacturers. Dry Suits, BCs, Wings, Plates and many other items are made and backed by the same service and dependability.

I hope this helped in some way.

 

[Scuba7]

Dive Rite, Zeagle, HOG....
These are the names that come to mind when selecting an absolute BULLETPROOF Reg Set.

Very helpful Air Hog, thank you.

 

[Subcooled]

Any regulator that delivers air (they are ALL certified to 50 meters, aren't they) and is cold water certified and is easy to service is good. Because of this, Apeks is not good. Poseidon is even worse.

I would have recommended Apeks, but Aqualung bought Apeks and has made the utterly stupid decision to prohibit service kit sales to private persons/tech divers. Now I would be forced to use their certified service centre (that I do not trust). HOG holds a promise (although with inferior quality). Let me make my own decision, Aqualung, I am an adult.

 

[buddhasummer]

I was unaware APEKS ever sold service kits openly. Regardless, finding kits is not too difficult, well I've never found it so.

Out of curiosity what about HOG have you found to be inferior?