Best Deals on Singles BP/W

[ams511]

Tobin,

You do not need to worry because I will never confuse divers by recommending your company or your products. Oh and BTW, I do own your company's products.

I also have an LCD 30 in storage. The steel plate has the wedge blocks and straps removed because it was used with an STA.

 

[niknik]

Thanks to all who provided constructive replies and ideas. Sounds like the DGX package is the best route for my needs after all.

I have to say I'm surprised by some of the manufacturer's/retailer's responses. Maybe it's just reading vs speaking (can't tell inflections and the like), but you get a real sense of animosity towards potential customers from some of those in the business of selling this stuff. Again, I don't know the history of individual posters and whatever has come before, but I find it a bit odd. Hard to imagine any major brand rep responding like that. Maybe it's a hobbyist-owner type of thing vs a corporate mentality? I guess every industry has its "hard core", but I can see how folks could get turned off to what I'm sure are high-quality, made in the USA, great products built with love and care. There's also a local dive shop that's kind of like that--almost elitist or something. Weird.

Anyway, thanks again for everyone taking the time.

 

[Centrals]

Thanks to all who provided constructive replies and ideas. Sounds like the DGX package is the best route for my needs after all.
.............................................................................................. Weird.

Can't go wrong with the DGX package.

When talking about equipment it really brings out the idiosyncrasy of the individual. All harmless and can be amusing to the non involved.

 

[uncfnp]

Thanks to all who provided constructive replies and ideas. Sounds like the DGX package is the best route for my needs after all.

I have to say I'm surprised by some of the manufacturer's/retailer's responses. Maybe it's just reading vs speaking (can't tell inflections and the like), but you get a real sense of animosity towards potential customers from some of those in the business of selling this stuff. Again, I don't know the history of individual posters and whatever has come before, but I find it a bit odd. Hard to imagine any major brand rep responding like that. Maybe it's a hobbyist-owner type of thing vs a corporate mentality? I guess every industry has its "hard core", but I can see how folks could get turned off to what I'm sure are high-quality, made in the USA, great products built with love and care. There's also a local dive shop that's kind of like that--almost elitist or something. Weird.

Anyway, thanks again for everyone taking the time.

While I hate wading into the miasma of this thread...

The package you linked is perfectly adequate and like just about all dive gear sold today will do the job intended. I am not a fan of the open style of the DR wings but that’s just personal preference.

But if you are willing to work a little harder and order the separate pieces linked by @stuartv you will have an even better rig (IMHO). The only change, and yes it would add a few more dollars, is the VDH Aquanaut Wing, either the 18 or the 23. The VDH wing is simply superior to the Hog 23, both in construction and in the streamlined profile in the water.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

No, I never asked any other manufacturers. The other wings I have looked at (in pictures) never looked to me like the slots for the tank straps were cut too short to accommodate a variety of different dimensions for the spacing of the slots on the back plate. Meaning, if the tank straps are 2" wide and the wing slots are 2" wide, then the wing would not allow for any adjustment up or down on the BP. You could only move it up or down if the back plate had bigger slots, and they would also have to line up perfectly with the wing slots.

The VDH ones did look that way in the pictures I looked at. Thus why I had posted the questions I did.

The wings I have owned have slots that are wider than the tank straps, so they would generally work with any BP, even if the BP only held the tank straps in one specific position..

The pictures on the VDH site now do look like the VDH wings have wider slots than what it looked like in the original pictures I saw.

One thing nice about the VDH wing slots is the fact that THEY ARE tight.
They are 2” wide, and the inner and outer fabric are offset so that the wing actually “grips” the cam strap.
This works very well when the wing is being used with no STA, as it helps keep the wing from flopping around when setting up the rig or changing tanks.
It’s not up the the manufacturer of the wing to worry about it working with all plates, it’s up to the plate designer to make their plates fit whatever wings they deem suitable for their plates, (unless one manufacturer makes both).
I chose to design my plates originally around Oxycheq and now VDH.
Any other wings are up to the user to experiment with. If someone want’s to use a particular wing that I’m not familiar with, then they can send me the wing and I’ll design the plate around their wing for an extra charge.

If you’re looking for cheap then don’t get a Freedom Plate. They are not a discount or budget minded product.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Thanks to all who provided constructive replies and ideas. Sounds like the DGX package is the best route for my needs after all.

I have to say I'm surprised by some of the manufacturer's/retailer's responses. Maybe it's just reading vs speaking (can't tell inflections and the like), but you get a real sense of animosity towards potential customers from some of those in the business of selling this stuff. Again, I don't know the history of individual posters and whatever has come before, but I find it a bit odd. Hard to imagine any major brand rep responding like that. Maybe it's a hobbyist-owner type of thing vs a corporate mentality? I guess every industry has its "hard core", but I can see how folks could get turned off to what I'm sure are high-quality, made in the USA, great products built with love and care. There's also a local dive shop that's kind of like that--almost elitist or something. Weird.

Anyway, thanks again for everyone taking the time.

In dive equipment, there are the large corporate entities that you’d rarely or never see here on SB, and then the smaller more personal manufacturers and dealers that are “hard core” and take this stuff much more personally. These are the ones you’ll see on internet forums. Diving is still a very small community and there is a somewhat of a renaissance of small specialty manufacturing. We are passionate about the stuff we make. Our products many times do not fall into the corporate template of what a typical dive shop display looks like, so we’ve resorted to going directly to the customer via online forums where the most involved and “hard core” divers tend to hang out. We have in a way had to circumvent the dive shops and the establishment because they refuse to deal with our products because they do not fit the current “industry standard”.

So yes, there will he strong personalities and the resulting disagreements/feuds, but there will also be a lot of positive things when you deal directly with the people who make and sell this stuff. There are a lot of nerves worn thin when people comment or attack your child.
I would consider it a priviledge and an honor to be able to converse directly with the heartbeat of a budding movement!
It may seem weird, but in this day and age I’m pretty immune to anything weird or different.
In a way It’s like the old days when the sport first started.
Try that with Scubapro or Apple or GM and see where you get.

 

[stuartv]

One thing nice about the VDH wing slots is the fact that THEY ARE tight.
They are 2” wide, and the inner and outer fabric are offset so that the wing actually “grips” the cam strap.
This works very well when the wing is being used with no STA, as it helps keep the wing from flopping around when setting up the rig or changing tanks.
It’s not up the the manufacturer of the wing to worry about it working with all plates, it’s up to the plate designer to make their plates fit whatever wings they deem suitable for their plates, (unless one manufacturer makes both).
I chose to design my plates originally around Oxycheq and now VDH.
Any other wings are up to the user to experiment with. If someone want’s to use a particular wing that I’m not familiar with, then they can send me the wing and I’ll design the plate around their wing for an extra charge.

If you’re looking for cheap then don’t get a Freedom Plate. They are not a discount or budget minded product.

I'm glad you chimed in. You might be the PERFECT person to ask this.

I mean this in all sincerity, too. I'm not trying to argue. I'm trying to understand. I have never designed a BP or wing, so I do realize you (all) know a lot more about it than I do.

Your Freedom plate is a perfect example to illustrate what I don't understand about this issue.

My Freedom plate has 2" wide slots for tank straps, right? So, if my wing also has 2" wide slots, then that means the wing will only fit in exactly one spot on the plate. The plate is made where it only "fits" on my back in one spot.

How do you know that your design, with the wing and plate only fitting properly in one spot on the diver's back, is going to work the best possible for any given diver?

I mean, it seems to me that the optimal position of the wing, for any given diver, would depend on all the other variables - the diver's body, what exposure protection they are wearing, what weight they need, what type and size of tank they are using, etc..

Even with the same diver and exposure protection, the diver might need their lift slightly higher for one tank they use and slightly lower for a different tank. If the diver is like me and rarely needs any lead added, then not being able to move the wing (or plate) up or down seems like it could easily result in some configurations where the diver would have to add unneeded leaded to their rig somewhere just to get proper trim.

I have always thought that this is why every wing I own has at least 2 sets of grommets, so that I can attach the wing to a BP in at least 2 different positions, to optimize trim.

The design where the wing is, essentially, locked into one position seems like it would lack this ability - an ability that would be desirable, to some people, with some configurations.

It seems like all that is needed, in order to "remedy" this is to make the slots on the wing longer, so the wing can be moved up or down. So, why would any manufacturer not do this?

 

[tbone1004]

@stuartv it wasn't until recently that you had options on where to put wings on the backplate.
DSS, one position
Halcyon, one position
Dive Rite-used to have one position, now has a bit more flexibility, but if you use the Transpac you only get one position.
Most of the rest will have 2, maybe 3 sets of grommet holes for you to align the wing, but it doesn't make that much of a difference. You can move my doubles wings to any hole you want and I'll still trim out fine. You have a lot more control over your trim than the wing does.

You get it close enough and it's up to the divers to sort their own stuff out. That's what different wing shapes are for. Single tank wings should have very little air in there and that will go to the highest point of the wing, which is mostly a function of your trim. A wing height change of 2" isn't going to change the inherent trim of the diver and there shouldn't be so much gas in there like there is in doubles for it to really make a difference

 

[dmaziuk]

How do you know that your design, with the wing and plate only fitting properly in one spot on the diver's back, is going to work the best possible for any given diver?

I think if you have no or very little air in your wing, what difference does it make?

 

[stuartv]

@dmaziuk I have dived a decent amount with a single steel 120, in a 3mm wetsuit, with a SS BP. That means 9# of gas plus however much I'm overweighted by having a SS BP. So, at least, say, 10# of lift being used at the start of a dive. That's over half of an 18# wing....

In my experimenting with my Freedom Contour plate, I found that, in a 3mm wetsuit and Deep6 fins, if I get perfectly still, my feet sink. That is with a steel 100 that is set so high it's annoying because I keep bumping my head on the first stage. And with my head up, back arched, knees at more than 90, putting my feet closer to my tank than I normally would, and hands together out in front of me. I think it is because the shape of the Freedom plate concentrates more weight towards my feet, compared to a conventional shape for a BP. I don't want to add weight, so the only option I would have is shifting the wing down some on the BP. Or constant, slight sculling....

@tbone1004, you say that I have more control over my trim than my wing does. If I want to be PERFECTLY still and stay in trim, what should I try in the above Freedom plate scenario (presuming I keep the same tank and exposure protection)?