Best CCR in 2025-2030 Rebreather Markets

[BoltSnap]

First, what exactly should we feel free to call you?

Second, it saddens me that anyone would believe its "normal" (whatever the hell that means these days) to get relevant news from any internet forum on any topic. When you can get a hundred quibbling posts on the virtues of snorkel holders, crotch straps, or different booties, your expectations should be pretty low.

Most "big" companies have marketing departments. Most have strategic plans. All have telephone numbers, most have email. A lot of them post in the Manufacturer's area here. Most are members of DEMA and go to the show. Last time I checked, you were allowed to speak with them directly.

You want to know about something that may happen in 5 years, ask a gypsy, get a crystal ball. Personally, I am betting on the 2.4% chance of a giant meteor impact in 2032. Lot better odds than the lottery.

OK, let's shut SB down, and we can all go home now. We can bombard DEMA exhibitors with emails and questions instead.

I find it highly offensive and hostile to tell a SB member to buzz off and take their questions somewhere else. That's very RUDE!!!

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A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

Lets all play nicely, please.

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[Mobulai]

@Mas.
Here is some more on big corporate buying up businesses turning them into subsidies, albeit in SCUBA and not rebreather context.
I’d be scared for the longevity of a product on the market if a huge company buys it up, they got the financial slack to cut it off when it doesn’t do as well as they want

(Btw this is a story to give context on Aqualung, the owner of Apeks, not about Mares itself; but for completeness, mares bought Dacor for their dealer network and their IP)

Please read the thread I linked above about this matter. The facts say the opposite of what you and others are fantasizing about here.

I still remember when DACOR went under, and eventually, Mares bought them. I was a big DACOR dealer in NY then and thought oh great, Mares will keep the brand alive, and there will be no issues with parts for a few more years. That wasn't the case. Mares just put the DACOR logo on a few of the Mares regulators, which continued for very short years. It turned out that Mares bought the failed DACOR name to take control of DACOR's dealer network. Mares USA had less luck penetrating the US market then and bought DACOR because DACOR had a good dealer network in the US. No new DACOR equipment and no parts at the end. Mares offered people who owned DACOR regulators discounts to buy Mares regulators, but it wasn’t free nor a good deal. I had customers who owned DACOR regulators for themselves and their entire families (father, mother, son, etc.) and did so for decades, yet all that went down the drain. I find it terrible to forget all this when the circumstances are similar and appear to be even worse now. They still advise people to buy equipment from a company that has all the information put out in public; the influential people in the industry and people who were very closely associated with the company say that it is a bleak and terrible situation. It appears that AL, especially Apeks, is in horrible shape. Most likely, there won't be a happy ending.

People who are fantasizing about a happy ending and still recommending that people continue to buy AL equipment are thinking/fantasizing that all will be ok in the end. You're having wet dreams and fantasies, but they are just that: dreams and fantasies have nothing to do with realities. There is a very good chance what happened with DACOR will happen again, and customers who believed in the product will end up holding the bag with their regulators that they can’t get serviced, updated, or enjoy what they bought them for in diving.

I just don’t get it. The warning signs are in big capital letters with history to back them up, yet people still want to bury their masks in the sand and pretend nothing is wrong. They will put their hard-earned money into this terrible deal or try to convince others to throw their money in the fire. Wow!!

I have the TBP on my 82X (a heavy reg) and on my 28XR. It's really quite ingenious (though not completely new - the Dacor Extreme had a plastic oring sealed sleeve piston that acted the same way).
In any case, this floating piston head acts like the diaphragm, sealing against a smooth inner sealing surface just like a piston reg. The pin that opens the valve is connected to the piston head, and the seal above is a similar floating piston-head-like device that accepts the load of the environmental seal. Connecting the two together maintains the alignment of the sealing piston head that substitutes for the diaphragm.
Thus you have a dry-sealed reg with all the advantages of a diaphragm (crisper lockup for longer) but no constantly flexing diaphragm.
Time will tell if the oring seal does better than the diaphragm, but at least no more of these:
View attachment 884720
View attachment 884721
Mares has tested the 28XR to 200m.

Maybe Mares' purchase of the corpse of Dacor finally paid off with something other than headaches and bad feelings.

I'm picturing an engineering intern being told to go through a bunch of boxes that were dumped off in 1998 (before he was born), seeing the testing docs on the Dacor Extreme and thinking, "You know. With a little work we might just have something here."

 

[Mas.]

@Mas.
Here is some more on big corporate buying up businesses turning them into subsidies, albeit in SCUBA and not rebreather context.
I’d be scared for the longevity of a product on the market if a huge company buys it up, they got the financial slack to cut it off when it doesn’t do as well as they want

(Btw this is a story to give context on Aqualung, the owner of Apeks, not about Mares itself; but for completeness, mares bought Dacor for their dealer network and their IP)

Big company vs small is a different topic but is interesting to me. So thanks for sharing this with me.

With regards to the longevity aspect only, in my opinion the normal situation for any big company is to keep the good product as long as it is bringing some value. Big companies are capable of keeping the good product longer if they want to, but smaller once are not capable of keeping the product beyond the life of its founders. Even if smaller team want to keep it, most likely will not be possible. Unless something extraordinary happens to save the product but still happen less often.

We may be able to find few examples of a big company acquiring a product and then cutting it off, because it is not bringing enough value. This is a possible scenario but if the product is good enough the big company is more likely to keep it, because they can and because they don't rely on life conditions of any living individuals. Right?

Maybe you have many examples in Scuba products to show that most big companies will try to keep the good product?

Maybe you also have tons of examples to show that most products offered by smaller size of 1-2 entrepreneurs, no matter how successful the product is, in most cases will still have to shut down because of the health or life conditions of its founders? Like most professional services have to shut down when the professional founder leaves. Unless something extraordinary happens to save the product but still happen less often.

For some kind of products I would opt to go with smaller teams, to support or enjoy certain qualities or have personalized services, but not necessarily for longevity, safety testing, or risk stake in a complex life-support technology, but that is just my personal choice. Again, I have nothing against smaller companies for me it's just pure data.

Thanks again for sharing.

 

[Villain]

Wow, 15 pages of responses, and nobody has considered Brad Horn's rebreather.
Should be coming out soon...

 

[jale]

Wow, 15 pages of responses, and nobody has considered Brad Horn's rebreather.
Should be coming out soon...

And it is controlled by Adobe, a 15billion revenue company

 

[Mas.]

Wow, 15 pages of responses, and nobody has considered Brad Horn's rebreather.
Should be coming out soon...

Can you pls share all information you know about this new rebreather that is coming out soon.

 

[Villain]

Ok, let me see, there should be a pdf around here somewhere.

 

[Sascha314]

Just a counter example to longevity: Software and hardware companies do not offer support for a long time. New models are not compatible to old.

Now in eCCR, which isnprobably the way to go, there is hsrdware and software involved. Especially big companies tend to usd specialized components, which are proprietary. So very hard to maintain yourself, because you lack spare parts. For well known and popular rebreathers there will be the possibility to have replacement ideas.

Now whats your take on this, think of dive computers as well. Support or Scubapro for its old models is hard, or such expensive that you can buy a new one.

I know this example from another industry: espresso machines. There is the same, big appliance companies offer something. But for 99% its a fail, and the 1% offen is not as durable and its hard to fix.

Whats your tske on this examples?

 

[Wibble]

Wow, 15 pages of responses, and nobody has considered Brad Horn's rebreather.
Should be coming out soon...

Now have to clean up my coffee after that laugh!

Brilliant! Thanks

 

[Mobulai]

Wow, 15 pages of responses, and nobody has considered Brad Horn's rebreather.
Should be coming out soon...

Considered? yes, let the intrusive thoughts win? no
Well played.. Villain

Big companies are capable of keeping the good product longer if they want to, but smaller once are not capable of keeping the product beyond the life of its founders.

umm, Paralenz is a good example for both our opposing arguments
It went bankrupt, but since it’s not a fully in-house all proprietary set of components, the OEM supplier of batteries and other service parts have reached out to the community (and DRIS) to tell users that they can help keep the product running

Another example is the company you keep bringing up, and trying to shotgun-wedding it to CCR biz; Scubapro
The MK5 and mk10 are the most sold regulators worldwide (in the 90s at least, according to their gold plated commemorative mk10 marketing materials)
They are discontinued, but they still get service kits (not parts)
Only because Scubapro service kit parts are “reused” in new designs, so they are still being made
But scratch a HP oring groove.. dang, dead with no resurrection

Revo doesn’t even use Mares regulators for it’s o2/dil cylinders (afaik), what makes anyone think Mares will spend a dollar out of pocket trying to keep it run longer if it’s not profitable anymore

To echo @Sascha314 we live in the age of planned obsolescence (for a long time now); it’s in a big company’s best interest to have new versions sooner than later so that consumers buy more, so higher product volatility

Oh.. um.. regarding what Villain mentioned, that was a.. well.. urmmm.. I suggest using the search feature to get some context on the intended “____”, but I’ll start you out; check out this thread
(I’m really trying to avoid a summoning)

B

Post in thread 'Investment in R&D by rebreather manufacturers'

Sep 30, 2023

Some of the most cost effective R&D still hits $ millions pretty quick, but enables significant evolution from minor things like enabling the lowest Work of Breathing and comes from actually conducting Test & Evaluation of the assumed basics:

You seem to produce a lot of paperwork but how come nobody buys one of your rebreathers? Are they available? Wasn't it your company that collected a bunch of money from people for a ccr that wasn't delivered? I don't know, I'm asking.

When a website is full 3d rendered pictures but virtually no actual pictures it makes it seem like a scam site.

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