Belize Tragedy

[Cudabait]

No. But thank you for even considering that possibility.

I've read a few other posts where people say it's the operator's fault for allowing them to jump overboard. I can't see how you could stop them. I would try like hell to talk them out of it and explain all the logical reasoning of why it's a bad idea but if they want to go........

Hank,

I think we're all in agreement on that......however, it would appear that these folks, at minimum, may have had serious licensing issues? IMHO>

Regards,

 

[Diver0001]

Silk Caye, where they apparently tried to make for, is about 13 miles from shore (Placencia) but inside the reef. There are other cayes within a few miles of each other in the area. But Gladden, just to the north, is kind of like a funnel pointing out to sea. The potential currents are indicated by the abundance of sea life that accumulates there....the whale sharks, among other large amounts of fish. With west winds and an outgoing tide the current could have been pretty strong. I hear they found them 25 miles out at sea.

I see. Thanks for the clarification.

R..

 

[RonFrank]

How would you stop four people from jumping overboard if they're bound and determined even against your insistance that they don't?

I'd just grab my flare gun, and .... ooopppsss... nevermind....

There WAS NO FlareGun!

Seriously, how bound and determined, was the DM to prevent them from going overboard?

From what I've read, it's difficult to say if he offered much if any resistance. This whole thing is just seriously sad because a radio would have made the whole mess easy...

 

[WaterWayne]

...I like rustic...for the price you pay for a shop the local fishermen will take you anywhere you want to go.... and on *your* terms...I can somehow understand how something like that would happen.
R..

R, we're kindred spirits when it comes to rustic. In fact, as a solo traveler and buddy-less diver, I've made almost all my own arrangements to get off the gringo-beaten track. This discussion and the other threads about the operator, boat provisions, etc., certainly are a tragic reminder for those like us. Perhaps the parents can take some comfort in knowing that the young lady exited full of energy and purpose, as she apparently lived her life.

Having said that, I think you're more right than you realize in your last sentence. Vacationing gringos shouldn't be able to define the trip's destination nor conclusion. In the other threads referenced by Hank, on SB and in the Belize dive forum, hearsay has it that these divers insisted on going on to the original destination despite weather warnings (and one presumes, crew warnings.) As a very long-time traveler to 3rd-world countries, I've seen too often the power of the culturally arrogant dollar that pays for *your* terms, local custom or conditions notwithstanding.

Last but certainly not least important, there was a heckuva quote on one of those other SB threads, to the effect of "don't abandon the boat unless you're stepping UP off it." That's a powerful thought for us all, too.

--Wayne

 

[Diver0001]

R, we're kindred spirits when it comes to rustic. In fact, as a solo traveler and buddy-less diver, I've made almost all my own arrangements to get off the gringo-beaten track. This discussion and the other threads about the operator, boat provisions, etc., certainly are a tragic reminder for those like us. Perhaps the parents can take some comfort in knowing that the young lady exited full of energy and purpose, as she apparently lived her life.

Having said that, I think you're more right than you realize in your last sentence. Vacationing gringos shouldn't be able to define the trip's destination nor conclusion. In the other threads referenced by Hank, on SB and in the Belize dive forum, hearsay has it that these divers insisted on going on to the original destination despite weather warnings (and one presumes, crew warnings.) As a very long-time traveler to 3rd-world countries, I've seen too often the power of the culturally arrogant dollar that pays for *your* terms, local custom or conditions notwithstanding.

Last but certainly not least important, there was a heckuva quote on one of those other SB threads, to the effect of "don't abandon the boat unless you're stepping UP off it." That's a powerful thought for us all, too.

--Wayne

This is an excellent post, Wayne, and a nice addition to what I said. If you organise things yourself it can't be stressed enough how important it is to consult local divers and follow their advice.

R..

 

[kkrepps]

It seems like there is plenty of blame to go around here. I notice no additional statements from the survivors have been sited. There is lots of information still missing. Just a couple of things though. At one time not too many years ago I was the instructor and managed the dive operation at a resort north of Placencia.

1) Belize requires all dives be led by licensed guides. If the Tourist Police (yes there is a branch of the national police force called this & and they do patrol the dive areas fairly aggressively) had caught this boat without a licensed guide the boat could have been confiscated. This shop was operating illegally under Belize law. Someone mentioned getting a local fisherman to take them out, the fisherman would also be risking the loss of his boat and a fine.
2) It is (unless things have changed) almost impossible to get flares in Belize. They are considered fireworks and it requires a special and expensive pyrotechnics licence to own, sell or import them. No one has them
3) The boat looks OK, but you can't tell its condition from a picture. Dive operations in Belize use everything from jet drive Pro 48s to small fiberglass jobs made in Belize city
4) Boats go out with small craft warnings up all the time. There are a lot of what are essentially micro-climates along the coast. It would be interesting if we ever find out who urged going out. I suspect it was a combination of the divers wanting not to be disappointed and the shop willing to take the risk for the money. I can't tell you how many times I've heard "They're certified divers. They take their own risks."
5) Belize has a very different attitude about risk. Law suites are not that common. When we worked there we carried liability insurance only because we mostly catered to US guests and we had assets in the US. In other words we didn't worry about what would happen in court in Belize but what could happen back home. I've noticed Americans often expect to be taken care of. Belizians pretty much assume no one is going to watch out for them but them. You put those two attitudes together and its not hard to imagian someone getting hurt.
6) While dive boats are required to have life jackets its a rule that is mostly honered in its being ignored. Some operations carry O2 some don't. We did but it was a constant battle to keep equipment in operational shape. Not having water on board is hard to fathom.
7) Why someone would abandon a perfectly good boat is beyond me.

 

[gangrel441]

R, we're kindred spirits when it comes to rustic. In fact, as a solo traveler and buddy-less diver, I've made almost all my own arrangements to get off the gringo-beaten track. This discussion and the other threads about the operator, boat provisions, etc., certainly are a tragic reminder for those like us. Perhaps the parents can take some comfort in knowing that the young lady exited full of energy and purpose, as she apparently lived her life.

Having said that, I think you're more right than you realize in your last sentence. Vacationing gringos shouldn't be able to define the trip's destination nor conclusion. In the other threads referenced by Hank, on SB and in the Belize dive forum, hearsay has it that these divers insisted on going on to the original destination despite weather warnings (and one presumes, crew warnings.) As a very long-time traveler to 3rd-world countries, I've seen too often the power of the culturally arrogant dollar that pays for *your* terms, local custom or conditions notwithstanding.

Last but certainly not least important, there was a heckuva quote on one of those other SB threads, to the effect of "don't abandon the boat unless you're stepping UP off it." That's a powerful thought for us all, too.

--Wayne

Just a few months ago, there was a thread on here about a dive boat in Belize that ran aground on the barrier Reef and capsized, stranding all passengers out on the reef for several hours before they were rescued. No casulties, but as the story came out, it was alleged that the passengers insisted on making the trip out to glover's on a day when the weather should absolutely not have permitted it. The boat had no compass or GPS, and they were out later than anticipated, so when making the crossing through the barrier reef (the captiain was experienced at going on sight landmarks) it was already nightfall, and he could not find his milestones.

All problems about that operation, its equipment, and its captain aside, the passengers were the ones (according to the story told) who used their pocketbooks to manipulate the captain into taking the boat somewhere where conditions should not have permitted. The operation certainly bears the brunt of the responsibility, but gringo syndrome showed its ugly head here too...

 

[LavaSurfer]

6) While dive boats are required to have life jackets its a rule that is mostly honered in its being ignored. Some operations carry O2 some don't. We did but it was a constant battle to keep equipment in operational shape. Not having water on board is hard to fathom.

Great information kkrepts, Thanks

I find it interesting that we are worried about life jackets when we have BC's we can blow up if needed. That to me seems like a non-issue. If they jusmped in the water and started moving towards the shore with thier equipment on, they would never have used the PFD's anyway.

The radio seems almost like a no brainer though...

 

[kkrepps]

Great information kkrepts, Thanks
The radio seems almost like a no brainer though...

Unfortunately this is another one of those assumptions Americans often make. Radio who? The only coast guard in Belize is the US Coast Guard which is interest ONLY in drugs. The likelyhood of someone just running out to pick up a boat with a down motor is low. We mostly ran boats with two motors just because of this. I do have a number of memories of drifting in our smaller boat (single motor) as the capitan worked at getting the outboard started again.

Just to give you an idea of how hard things are to find, I had a 10 year old Nisson truck. I broke the tenshioning screw for the fan belt. A replacement did not exist in the country. That took about a month to determine. No Nisson dealer in Belize, basically only Ford and Toyota. I had to import one from the US. (Couldn't find one in Chetumal in Mexico either). Two dollar bolt cost about $50 by the time I got through looking, international phone calls, and mailing.

Just remember that outside of the really developed places like Cozumel, things just aren't like they are in the US. If the dive outfit maks you feel like its just like in the US they have worked really hard at it.

 

[LavaSurfer]

Unfortunately this is another one of those assumptions Americans often make. Radio who? The only coast guard in Belize is the US Coast Guard which is interest ONLY in drugs. The likelyhood of someone just running out to pick up a boat with a down motor is low. We mostly ran boats with two motors just because of this. I do have a number of memories of drifting in our smaller boat (single motor) as the capitan worked at getting the outboard started again.

Just to give you an idea of how hard things are to find, I had a 10 year old Nisson truck. I broke the tenshioning screw for the fan belt. A replacement did not exist in the country. That took about a month to determine. No Nisson dealer in Belize, basically only Ford and Toyota. I had to import one from the US. (Couldn't find one in Chetumal in Mexico either). Two dollar bolt cost about $50 by the time I got through looking, international phone calls, and mailing.

Just remember that outside of the really developed places like Cozumel, things just aren't like they are in the US. If the dive outfit maks you feel like its just like in the US they have worked really hard at it.

Interesting I guess and scary in a sense.
I would think they would have marine radio's and if nothing else, cover each other but that too might be an american concept :05:

Also, I can understand the costs involved when they can barely keep a boat running there isn't anything left to get radios.

I did find Belize more expensive to dive than Roatan, Coz or even cayman. THat suprised me and even more now because in Coz, Cayman and Roatan they all had O2, Radios an such. Now I wonder...What are they doing with the money?

I get that its very 3rd world there, I am looking to buy a place and am having some reservations.