BC Remove and Replace Skill

[boulderjohn]

I always used all the allotted pool time.

The great "accordion" in the standards is the free swimming time. The standards call for a significant amount of time spent just swimming around and getting used to buoyancy. The standards are not specific about this, but the fact that students are supposed to respond to being asked how much air they have with a reasonably accurate response without looking at their gauges (because they are supposed to have looked at them recently) tells you that a minute or two is not enough.

I suspect a lot of instructors almost skip that requirement and just focus on the skills. As for me, I kept my eye on the clock and expanded or contracted the free swimming time depending upon how much time was available given how long it took to do the skills. I felt the free swimming was very valuable, and I wanted my students to be climbing out of the pool at the end of our scheduled time.

 

[boulderjohn]

In these neck of the woods most instructors are incapable of demonstrating the skills neutrally buoyant, thus believing that everyone else is as slow to adapt as them.

I have heard this often. I feel that if brand new OW students can do it at the end of a few hours in a swimming pool, an instructor should be able to do it given enough time to practice.

When I posed for the pictures for the PADI article, the instructor who took the pictures was not a believer. He was a dedicated on-the-knees instructor. During the session, he said new students could not possibly do the remove and replace in mid water. I said my students do it every session. He said he doubted he could do it himself. I told him to give it a shot. He went over to the deep end of the pool and did it just fine the first time he tried.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I always used all the allotted pool time.

The great "accordion" in the standards is the free swimming time. The standards call for a significant amount of time spent just swimming around and getting used to buoyancy. The standards are not specific about this, but the fact that students are supposed to respond to being asked how much air they have with a reasonably accurate response without looking at their gauges (because they are supposed to have looked at them recently) tells you that a minute or two is not enough.

I suspect a lot of instructors almost skip that requirement and just focus on the skills. As for me, I kept my eye on the clock and expanded or contracted the free swimming time depending upon how much time was available given how long it took to do the skills. I felt the free swimming was very valuable, and I wanted my students to be climbing out of the pool at the end of our scheduled time.

Oh, I use all the time as well. At $160/hour, I'd be yelled at by management by wasting any of that time.

The "games/exercises" just help with buoyancy control

I found that just asking students at random times for their gas to be rather ineffective. Few would remember to do so. Instead, I told them to tell me and their dive buddy whenever they hit certain pressure milestones. Giving them a task/responsibility resulted in students tracking their cylinder pressure much more consistently.
One of the "games" I have to get students to focus on smooth finning is a race where they carry a golf ball on a spoon. If they drop it, they have to go back to the starring line. Does that qualify as swimming around in your book?

 

[Vicko]

I have heard this often. I feel that if brand new OW students can do it at the end of a few hours in a swimming pool, an instructor should be able to do it given enough time to practice.

When I posed for the pictures for the PADI article, the instructor who took the pictures was not a believer. He was a dedicated on-the-knees instructor. During the session, he said new students could not possibly do the remove and replace in mid water. I said my students do it every session. He said he doubted he could do it himself. I told him to give it a shot. He went over to the deep end of the pool and did it just fine the first time he tried.

I agree that everyone can learn to do it in just a few tries, I'm just saying that most instructors don't feel like learning how to do it the right way.
I never encountered a student that could not dive neutral after the first 2 confined water sessions and a lot of them get the hang during the first one.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I agree that everyone can learn to do it in just a few tries, I'm just saying that most instructors don't feel like learning how to do it the right way.
I never encountered a student that could not dive neutral after the first 2 confined water sessions and a lot of them get the hang during the first one.

We've discussed in other threads on how to get instructors off the knees.

Anything short of mandating open water to be taught neutrally buoyant is going to continue to result in open water often being taught the same way. While more IDCs/ITCs are teaching new instructors to teach neutrally buoyant (and hopefully trimmed, as weight distribution is a key part of proper weighting), the industry has such a long way to go.

The problem is, unless all agencies change together (say via a WRSTC requirement), agencies are going to be afraid of making this a requirement and lose members (and the revenue they generate) who cross over to other agencies. This is a business overall.

There's just a death grip on mediocrity in this industry that is tighter than something that belongs in a pub discussion.

 

[Adobo]

What if they are caught in a net where turning around is impossible or would result in even greater entanglement? What if they are caught in an anchor line or wire leader that their cutting tool can't get through? What if they are diving rental gear that doesn't include a cutting tool?

I don't see your problem with doff and don. It's both a practical tool and an excellent training device: it's potentially lifesaving in an entanglement situation, it's very useful with a slipped tank, it reinforces students understanding of how their gear functions by forcing them to think through the steps of getting it on and off under a different set of conditions, it provides reassurance to students that they can cope with out of the ordinary events underwater, and it provides instructors with additional feedback on the in water comfort of the student when task loaded.

The last two are of very real value. You might not be aware of this, but part of the brief of the formation of the RSTC standards was to include enough task loading exercises that agencies could discourage ad hoc harassment training by instructors during OW training. Underwater doff and don was a major component of this and it's the chief reason it is still in there despite the ever decreasing average time of instruction.

Truth be told, I have no problem with people learning how to take off and put back on their BC underwater. What's the harm in knowing?

My personal view though, is that it is an answer of a last resort. Meaning, you got tangled and you are separated and you cannot cut whatever you are tangled in and you are a situation where this is something that will drown you. But whatever, if you get into this situation then you gotta do what you gotta do to unscrew yourself.

Where I wind up cringing is when people pose this solution as if it is a good first response to a problem. For example, this video I posted in an earlier reply:


Somewhere, someone taught this guy how to take off and "fix" issues underwater. So what did he do when an issue occurred somewhere where he could not see the issue? He took his gear off. And made his situation worse.

 

[Gene]

I've posted this elsewhere, but I've had to take off my doubles underwater in a cavern and cave at least twice and I'm likely forgetting other times. The one cavern time at Little River was to fix a leaking first stage before I started my solo cave dive. Then another time in Little River Spring, back in the deep section on a jump line, I had to take off my doubles in zero vis at 120 feet to fit through an opening where the cave line was. (I had led in minutes earlier in a wider opening, but then when we turned, a sidemount diver took the tighter path out, which I couldn't fit through with doubles. I made the decision to keep my hand on the line as I knew that led out.)
I practice valve shut off drills often during deco or safety stops and due to some arthritis issues, I have to unhook part of my backplate/wings gear, and this is good practice/muscle memory for doing it when you have to. Whether you can see or not!
Oh, and another time, just to make sure I could do it, I did a valve shut off drill with my BCD and single H valve tank in a tight part of a cave just past the cavern zone. My buddy was near by that time just in case but all went fine.
Practice drills are important!

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Truth be told, I have no problem with people learning how to take off and put back on their BC underwater. What's the harm in knowing?

My personal view though, is that it is an answer of a last resort. Meaning, you got tangled and you are separated and you cannot cut whatever you are tangled in and you are a situation where this is something that will drown you. But whatever, if you get into this situation then you gotta do what you gotta do to unscrew yourself.

Where I wind up cringing is when people pose this solution as if it is a good first response to a problem. For example, this video I posted in an earlier reply:


Somewhere, someone taught this guy how to take off and "fix" issues underwater. So what did he do when an issue occurred somewhere where he could not see the issue? He took his gear off. And made his situation worse.

Likes:
1. The floaty shark. I want one.
2. He kept calm
Didn't like:
1. There was no fixing the issue, best to put it back on to free up his hands, share air with someone else, close his valve to stop the bubbles.

 

[johndiver999]

Truth be told, I have no problem with people learning how to take off and put back on their BC underwater. What's the harm in knowing?

My personal view though, is that it is an answer of a last resort. Meaning, you got tangled and you are separated and you cannot cut whatever you are tangled in and you are a situation where this is something that will drown you. But whatever, if you get into this situation then you gotta do what you gotta do to unscrew yourself.

Where I wind up cringing is when people pose this solution as if it is a good first response to a problem. For example, this video I posted in an earlier reply:


Somewhere, someone taught this guy how to take off and "fix" issues underwater. So what did he do when an issue occurred somewhere where he could not see the issue? He took his gear off. And made his situation worse.

If you are skilled in it, it is not a big deal if the conditions are not too challenging. If it is super surgey or you are trying to be stationary in a current, then remove and replace becomes harder and it might be best to do it while negative and on the bottom. My first reaction is always to sink to the bottom, unless there is problems with silt etc.

I'm not so sure it is a last resort option either. If you are towing a float and you get the floatline wrapped behind you and you are away from your buddy, the last thing you want to do is cut the floatline. It is far better to remove the tank and fix the problem.

Also it is quite possible to get caught in something that is very difficult or impossible to cut easily from a position over your shoulder and blindly, plus you are cutting in proximity to your hoses. To be honest, cutting something blindly without knowing exactly what it is from over my shoulder sounds more stressful than removing the tank and seeing what the problem is. Especially if all this is taking place in a current.

So your "last resort" categorization is different from mine. I hate taking the tank off during the dive, it wastes time, is somewhat stressful and half the time I forget to re-attach the crotch strap, but I have done it a lot.

My buddy was diving a few years ago with a retired instructor who got caught in the floatline on his regulator first stage. He had signaled he was low on air and started a solo ascent from 90 feet and the buddy had decided to stay and catch lobsters and leave the floatline hooked to the bottom in a current. After the instructor left, the buddy saw that the guy had dropped all his lobster catching stuff, so he went to pick it up and then he noticed the instructor had removed his bc/tank to untangle himself from the line.

Apparently he was so freaked by the entanglement which was holding him to the bottom and being somewhat low on air that, once he had the tank off and was free, he just bolted for the surface with his tank in his hands. The buddy chased him for a while but gave up when the ascent speed was too high.

When I picked him up on the boat he was agitated and stressed. He still had 4-500 psi or something, so the bolt to the surface was entirely unnecessary.

The relevance of this (I guess) is that being reasonably comfortable doing the remove and replace at depth, has some real world advantages and NOT being comfortable could have serious consequences.

It is an important and fundamental skill in my opinion.

 

[Subcooled]

I am replying to the original poster without reading all the replies above.

My scuba training was less mainstream than the majority. I've never been taught or even been shown how to remove my BC under water.

Why would you ever do that?
I can think of a number of scenarios but none of them fall in the categories of recreational or safe.

Edit: I was reminded (thanks!!!) of the fact that all dive certification agencies that belong to the WRSTC organization (not all do; CMAS does not) require this skill to be taught. I hope they do understand what it means to remove 18 pounds of lead under water. Focusing too much on wetsuit, perhaps? I am a CMAS diver at heart.

When is this skill typically taught?

Dive master classes, assistant instructor classes, any other classes where the instructor wants to assess your resilience and composure in face of problems. CMAS did not teach this skill for recreational divers, though, and when the skill was taught at a more advanced class, we replaced integrated weights with a weight belt to make the drill possible.

Please note that this skill is easiest when wearing a wetsuit and a weight belt!

If your weigths are integrated into the BCD - or worse, you dive dry with integrated weigths - then this skill becomes a buoyancy challenge where you hang on to a heavy thing while your fins point at the heavens, unless you hug that thing tightly

And more importantly, in what scenario would a diver be using this skill?

You would NOT do that in an OOA scenario. It would be stupid to discard the tank.
Nobody penetrates no-mount restrictions in caves wearing a jacket BCD, so forget about it.
Perhaps a self rescue scenario in a wreck after you have done something totally immensely stupid?

Perhaps, if you dive alone wearing a backmounted set and you get hopelessly entangled in a fishing net and you do not have a knife?
You ought to be better prepared, though.

It is a nice drill though, and you can learn from it, hence recommended (during a pool session).