BC Remove and Replace Skill

[wetb4igetinthewater]

2017 instructor manual says for confined dive 5 to underwater:

1) Remove, replace, adjust and secure the scuba kit with minimal assistance in water too deep in which to stand, without losing control of buoyancy, body position and deipth.
2) Remove, replace, adjust and secure all or part of the weight system without losing control of buoyancy, body position and depth.
- With weight belt and weigh integrated BCD -- on the bottom in water too deep in which to stand.
- With any weight system that requires reassembly after weigts are removed -- in shallow water.


Though that is not the clearest.

Let's say you have a Zeagle Ranger. I sure hope you don't pull out the chord. That would be a PITA to put back while in the water. If a DUI weight harness is used, that too would be a PITA to replace.

For weight integrated BCD as the sole source, what does that mean? Does this get skipped? From a practical standpoint, it should say yes. The idea of reassembling the weight systems I mentioned in shallow water isn't realistic at all.

 

[tursiops]

My students had weight belts when I taught for PADI. I'm asking you as to how address just having weights integrated in BCDs, a very real scenario. Given these BCDs are increasingly common (almost universal I would expect), weight belts are being used less and less for practical and preference reasons. I don't see that as controversial. So given the realistic scenario of no weight belt, just integrated weights (which I think could be applicable for pretty much all people getting certified in warm tropical waters), my question is legitimate.

2017 instructor manual says for confined dive 5 to underwater:

1) Remove, replace, adjust and secure the scuba kit with minimal assistance in water too deep in which to stand, without losing control of buoyancy, body position and depth.
2) Remove, replace, adjust and secure all or part of the weight system without losing control of buoyancy, body position and depth.
- With weight belt and weight integrated BCD -- on the bottom in water too deep in which to stand.
- With any weight system that requires reassembly after weights are removed -- in shallow water.


Though that is not the clearest.

Let's say you have a Zeagle Ranger. I sure hope you don't pull out the chord. That would be a PITA to put back while in the water. If a DUI weight harness is used, that too would be a PITA to replace.

For weight integrated BCD as the sole source, what does that mean? Does this get skipped? From a practical standpoint, it should say yes. The idea of reassembling the weight systems I mentioned in shallow water isn't realistic at all.

PADI's Guide to Teaching (available to Instructors) covers this in detail, including all the lack of clarity and odd situations you are concerned about. The Instructor Manual provides STANDARDS, not how to teach the skills; that is for the IDC and the Guide to Teaching and Instructor-to-Instructor forums.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

PADI's Guide to Teaching (available to Instructors) covers this in detail, including all the lack of clarity and odd situations you are concerned about. The Instructor Manual provides STANDARDS, not how to teach the skills; that is for the IDC and the Guide to Teaching and Instructor-to-Instructor forums.

I'm not being a contrarian here, but unless I misunderstood @boulderjohn, the guide to teaching is NOT a standard. I would expect the standards to say that if a certain skill isn't applicable, then skip it. John, this was my memory about in an IE on whether when performing the scuba kit removal and replacement at the surface, the snorkel isn't required to be in the mouth. Again, I don't have the materials in front of me, so my memory could fail me here.

You say the manual doesn't provide "how to teach the skills" but then @MichaelMc provided this excerpt.

2017 instructor manual says for confined dive 5 to underwater:

1) Remove, replace, adjust and secure the scuba kit with minimal assistance in water too deep in which to stand, without losing control of buoyancy, body position and depth.
2) Remove, replace, adjust and secure all or part of the weight system without losing control of buoyancy, body position and depth.
- With weight belt and weight integrated BCD -- on the bottom in water too deep in which to stand.
- With any weight system that requires reassembly after weights are removed -- in shallow water.


Though that is not the clearest.

 

[tursiops]

I'm not being a contrarian here, but unless I misunderstood @boulderjohn, the guide to teaching is NOT a standard. I would expect the standards to say that if a certain skill isn't applicable, then skip it. John, this was my memory about in an IE on whether when performing the scuba kit removal and replacement at the surface, the snorkel isn't required to be in the mouth. Again, I don't have the materials in front of me, so my memory could fail me here.

You say the manual doesn't provide "how to teach the skills" but then @MichaelMc provided this excerpt.

The Guide to Teaching is not a standard; that is correct. The IM does not explain how to teach the skills, just what they are; it is the standards.
It is the difference between the "what" (IM) and the "how" (GtT).
For example, the standard in the current IM for CW Dive 5, underwater, is:

Remove, replace, adjust and secure all or part of the weight system without losing control of buoyancy, body position and depth.​

• With weight belt and weight integrated BCD – on the bottom in water too deep in which to stand.​

• With any weight system that requires reassembly after weights are removed – in shallow water.​

The Guide to Teaching says, for that skill:

Removal and replacement of weight system (underwater) — For student divers using weight integrated BCDs or weight harness systems, have divers remove and replace weights or dump weights on the bottom in shallow water. If necessary, have divers reassemble the system out of the water after weights are removed.​

For divers using a conventional weight belt, have them remove and replace their weight belt on the bottom in deep water. Reminders – maintain a snorkel or regulator in the mouth; have firm grasp to avoid dropping the belt; lean forward to put the weight on the back; release the buckle by feel; pull the belt clear of the body; replace by rolling or holding the belt in a loop and buckling by feel; and check that hoses/straps are not trapped under belt. Allow buddy assistance only if required.​

The snorkel in the mouth is a recommendation, not a standard.
If the weight system need to be reassembled, you can do it out of the water, afterwards.
The point is to give the students the muscle memory of actually releasing/removing/dropping their weights, because too many dead divers were found on the bottom with their weights still in.

 

[dmaziuk]

Let's say you have a Zeagle Ranger. I sure hope you don't pull out the chord. That would be a PITA to put back while in the water. If a DUI weight harness is used, that too would be a PITA to replace.

Same for cressi aquapro: you'd really want to lay it on the bottom to get the weights back into the pockets.

I assume most people would "cheat" and wear belt for the exercise.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

The point is to give the students the muscle memory of actually releasing/removing/dropping their weights, because too many dead divers were found on the bottom with their weights still in.

That doesn't make sense as there is already a separate skill for dropping weights. After all, a skill is to be repeated until it is mastered, is it not?

 

[tursiops]

That doesn't make sense as there is already a separate skill for dropping weights. After all, a skill is to be repeated until it is mastered, is it not?

I think rather than wasting my time anymore I'll just say F*** Off.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I think rather than wasting my time anymore I'll just say F*** Off.

Now now Mel, surely that violates ScubaBoard's terms of service.

Sarcasm off.

Mel, how about having a dialogue that isn't personal? Are my points completely unreasonable?

Other people participating here, am I out of line?

 

[tursiops]

Are my points completely unreasonable?

You mean, like suggesting a skill/standard be skipped because you don't know how to teach it?

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

You mean, like suggesting a skill/standard be skipped because you don't know how to teach it?

Oh, I know how to teach a weight belt. I don't think it makes sense for a DUI weight harness (DUI | Drysuits & Diving Equipment from Diving Unlimited International) or for divers with BCDs with integrated weights and no other weight system.

You brought up the rational for ditching weights for weight . There's a skill for that. I've had students do that with their weight belts and the DUI weight harness for every single student I certified.

I try to apply logic to the practicality of what students are being taught. While I'll always adhere to standards, I am aware that there is a scenario/environment (one in which I will never teach) where in this case, it simply doesn't appear to apply.

There is no harm with admitting you don't know or that maybe agencies haven't kept up with equipment changes in their standards.

That said, I'm wondering if balanced rigs were taught if there would be fewer deaths. The girl who died in Glacier might still be alive.