BC manufacturers must be Raking it in...

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

The US dive market is not "pumping out tons of new divers every year."

The dive industry now will certify fewer new divers today than we did five or six years ago.

Some time ago you had a retail store, that is no more. Wonder why?

Phil Ellis has a very active current store and seems to be doing all he can to work with today not yesterdays old news.

The fact that DEMA and PADI choose to stay away from the TEAM SCUBA effort does seem to say a lot about why the dive industry is where it is.
 
One of the reason's I went with DSS is because I know what the markup is on the particular lines the shop I was working with is. Even with a so-called key man discount for employees it was still outrageous. Not to mention the fact that many times an LDS may not be able to get what their customer really wants or needs due to manufacturer agreements and policies, not able to order enough of a product to warrant dealer status, or simply be locked into a narrowminded train of thought that what they have is the best and everything else is junk. I tried for months to get the owner to at least bring in a couple of different things. It was like pulling teeth to get him to ok my ordering the DSS products we did. Not because the stuff was not good but he is also locked into this recreational mindset and does not see the number of people going to BPW's, long hoses (you're not diving caves you don't need that), and cannister lights. Well the stuff got here and he said you ordered it it's yours. Guess what? Damn right it is! But now that our primary line (Oceanic) is coming out with a tech line, the stuff (tech or tech style depending on whose opinion you go by) is the best thing since sliced bread, why? Because you can get pockets, and quick releases, and colors. And you don't have to "force?" people to use a hog harness or add pockets. Alot of manufacturers have their dealers convinced that the latest gizmo, color, pockets, 25 drings(1/2 of em plastic) and no inflators, just a lever are what newbies want and worst of all need. So as long as instructors continue to listen to shops that listen to manufacturers the prices will stay up because the marketing people got to be paid, slave labor overseas takes alot of bribes, and shipping across a friggin ocean ain't cheap. But I guess it's cheaper than giving hardworking people from the countries where alot of this stuff is sold good paying jobs. And God forbid you start training people to properly use the gear they buy. And make sure they buy the most expensive, don't even try to sell them what they will really need, sell em what has the highest margin of profit even if it's too much for them. Better to sell a lower price now and get return business when they find out they really like this and want to upgrade. And most important upgrade from the dealer who didn't try to shaft em in the first place.
 
One of the reason's I went with DSS is because I know what the markup is on the particular lines the shop I was working with is. Even with a so-called key man discount for employees it was still outrageous. Not to mention the fact that many times an LDS may not be able to get what their customer really wants or needs due to manufacturer agreements and policies, not able to order enough of a product to warrant dealer status, or simply be locked into a narrowminded train of thought that what they have is the best and everything else is junk. I tried for months to get the owner to at least bring in a couple of different things. It was like pulling teeth to get him to ok my ordering the DSS products we did. Not because the stuff was not good but he is also locked into this recreational mindset and does not see the number of people going to BPW's, long hoses (you're not diving caves you don't need that), and cannister lights. Well the stuff got here and he said you ordered it it's yours. Guess what? Damn right it is! But now that our primary line (Oceanic) is coming out with a tech line, the stuff (tech or tech style depending on whose opinion you go by) is the best thing since sliced bread, why? Because you can get pockets, and quick releases, and colors. And you don't have to "force?" people to use a hog harness or add pockets. Alot of manufacturers have their dealers convinced that the latest gizmo, color, pockets, 25 drings(1/2 of em plastic) and no inflators, just a lever are what newbies want and worst of all need. So as long as instructors continue to listen to shops that listen to manufacturers the prices will stay up because the marketing people got to be paid, slave labor overseas takes alot of bribes, and shipping across a friggin ocean ain't cheap. But I guess it's cheaper than giving hardworking people from the countries where alot of this stuff is sold good paying jobs. And God forbid you start training people to properly use the gear they buy. And make sure they buy the most expensive, don't even try to sell them what they will really need, sell em what has the highest margin of profit even if it's too much for them. Better to sell a lower price now and get return business when they find out they really like this and want to upgrade. And most important upgrade from the dealer who didn't try to shaft em in the first place.

If you have an issue because you think the mark-up at the local scuba store is higher than the markup anywhere else, well, you are just wrong. The markup on SOLD AT RETAIL scuba gear is equal to or less than the markup on all of the other items you use every day, maybe electronics being the exception.

If your issue is that people aren't trained well enough to suit you, you need to understand that most divers are trained exactly how they want to be. It doesn't much matter how I want them trained, or how you want them trained...they will get trained how THEY want to be trained. The two weekend class is not an invention of PADI, or NAUI, or SSI, or SDI....it is a response to what new divers want. The average couple walking into my store to learn to dive on their next cruise vacation would bolt if we told them that the training process was four weeks. They don't want to be the kind of diver that many here on scubaboard strive to be. They want quick.

As scuba divers, we often forget that scuba is not only a sport, or a passion. It is also an industry. The wagon wheel business is pretty much dead in the United States, because there isn't much demand for wagon wheels. Without new divers, the same would happen to the scuba industry. Without scuba stores taking groups of divers to the ocean, the boats would mostly go away. Without scuba stores to move the merchandise, the manufacturers would go away. Diving is not any different than ANY other marketplace....there must be demand for it to work.

Even old, experienced divers that "don't want any new fancy, colored stuff" benefit GREATLY from the fact that MOST divers want exactly that. The dive industry have NEVER forced any particular product down a customers throat. They make a product based on their market study of divers, they produce the product (in all colors), and the market determines if the thing lasts.

I run a local scuba store. I clearly have a different business model than the next store closest to me. The result is I am attempting to cover overhead with volume, not high margins. There is WAY too much concentration on margin in this industry. For whatever reason, scuba divers HATE to see a local scuba store making money. Don't know why it is, but that is how it is.

Another issue about margin. You don't think Tobin makes about the same margin as your local scuba store? Don't fool yourself. He has to. He can't continue to spend money on opportunity costs if he has no way to recover it.

Phil Ellis
 
If you have an issue because you think the mark-up at the local scuba store is higher than the markup anywhere else, well, you are just wrong. The markup on SOLD AT RETAIL scuba gear is equal to or less than the markup on all of the other items you use every day, maybe electronics being the exception.

Very True

If your issue is that people aren't trained well enough to suit you, you need to understand that most divers are trained exactly how they want to be. It doesn't much matter how I want them trained, or how you want them trained...they will get trained how THEY want to be trained. The two weekend class is not an invention of PADI, or NAUI, or SSI, or SDI....it is a response to what new divers want. The average couple walking into my store to learn to dive on their next cruise vacation would bolt if we told them that the training process was four weeks. They don't want to be the kind of diver that many here on scubaboard strive to be. They want quick.

Maybe, but many have no idea what is possible, they have never been shown the bar. This is a correctable failure of the current system of instruction.

As scuba divers, we often forget that scuba is not only a sport, or a passion. It is also an industry. The wagon wheel business is pretty much dead in the United States, because there isn't much demand for wagon wheels. Without new divers, the same would happen to the scuba industry. Without scuba stores taking groups of divers to the ocean, the boats would mostly go away. Without scuba stores to move the merchandise, the manufacturers would go away. Diving is not any different than ANY other marketplace....there must be demand for it to work.

True

Even old, experienced divers that "don't want any new fancy, colored stuff" benefit GREATLY from the fact that MOST divers want exactly that. The dive industry have NEVER forced any particular product down a customers throat. They make a product based on their market study of divers, they produce the product (in all colors), and the market determines if the thing lasts.

Well maybe in a parallel universe. All to often "market research" is limited to looking around at what others are doing, and copying that. How many scuba marketing companies are really listening to the consumer?

I run a local scuba store. I clearly have a different business model than the next store closest to me. The result is I am attempting to cover overhead with volume, not high margins. There is WAY too much concentration on margin in this industry. For whatever reason, scuba divers HATE to see a local scuba store making money. Don't know why it is, but that is how it is.

I imagine some small number of diver might hate to see a LDS make a profit, but they are in the minority IMO. Divers do hate feeling like they have been taken advantage of. Unfortunately much of the current scuba business model seems almost require the typical Scuba retailer to treat their customers in a way that leads to the diver's feeling they have been abused.

Another issue about margin. You don't think Tobin makes about the same margin as your local scuba store? Don't fool yourself. He has to. He can't continue to spend money on opportunity costs if he has no way to recover it.

You are correct that I'm not running a hobby. Beyond that how can you claim to know what my margins are?

My business model too is different. By owning the actual means of production we can offer a wide range of goods, produced in fairly modest numbers. It's true that keeping design and production "in house" does not make it free, but it does allow us to closely control costs without hampering creativity.

For example in house production allows us to be able to offer 9 different back plates. That would simply not be practical if we had to deal with minimum production run requirements from outside vendors. Same for wings and all other parts we produce.

What does that mean for our customers? Hopefully well designed, innovative, quality goods that offer an excellent value for the customer's dollar.

Tobin
 
I don't mind seeing my LDS make a profit. In fact, I desperately hope they can and are, because I would like them to stay in business so that I don't have to drive any further for fills.

Retail in ANY field is a thankless business. Very few retail operations make money hand over fist. If the items sold are very low volume, they have to be high margin, because something has to pay the rent and utilities and employee salaries. Several of the dive shops I know are attended primarily by the owners, because they simply can't afford to pay employees to stand behind the counters.

Most people will buy a BC, if they buy anything, but they won't buy another one, or at least they won't do it for a long time. And unlike computers, for example, there aren't such significant upgrades in technology or construction that people will feel they HAVE to get the new model. And there is very little fashion to drive people to get the "in" thing.

Honestly, I sometimes wonder why my LDS is as friendly to me as they are. I have my gear -- I've bought a few significant things from them, but for the most part, I come in and take advantage of their all-you-can-eat Nitrox package and otherwise provide them with very little income. In part for this reason (and in part because I think they're good people) I try to steer people their way when I can. But when I look at the amount of business they do, I know they have to have big margins on their big ticket items to survive.
 
......Honestly, I sometimes wonder why my LDS is as friendly to me as they are. I have my gear -- I've bought a few significant things from them, but for the most part, I come in and take advantage of their all-you-can-eat Nitrox package and otherwise provide them with very little income. In part for this reason (and in part because I think they're good people) I try to steer people their way when I can. But when I look at the amount of business they do, I know they have to have big margins on their big ticket items to survive.

I believe you answered your own question.:wink:

This is very important part of customer satisfaction. Remember the old business adage, a happy customer tells 3 people, but an unhappy customer tells 13 people! With the internet I’m sure this stat needs to be re-studied!:wink:
 
The US dive market is not "pumping out tons of new divers every year."

The dive industry now will certify fewer new divers today than we did five or six years ago.

That's good, IMO, maybe they'll slow down and really train some of them.
Some time ago you had a retail store, that is no more. Wonder why?

If this is directed at me, you don't have top wonder. I'll tell you. I didn't care for the way the manufacturers and the agencies tried to run my business. While I love to dive and I love to teach, I hated owning a dive shop. when I got hating it enough, I locked the door.
Phil Ellis has a very active current store and seems to be doing all he can to work with today not yesterdays old news.
I don't know much about Phil or his store so I'll take your word for it.
The fact that DEMA and PADI choose to stay away from the TEAM SCUBA effort does seem to say a lot about why the dive industry is where it is.

What do race cars have to do with why the dive industry is where it is. When I visit a local dive site and watch training and diving it tells me plenty about why the industry is where it is. When I visit a dive shop and hear what the "experts" have to say, it tells me plenty too. I guess you could call it todays news.
 
If your issue is that people aren't trained well enough to suit you, you need to understand that most divers are trained exactly how they want to be. It doesn't much matter how I want them trained, or how you want them trained...they will get trained how THEY want to be trained. The two weekend class is not an invention of PADI, or NAUI, or SSI, or SDI....it is a response to what new divers want. The average couple walking into my store to learn to dive on their next cruise vacation would bolt if we told them that the training process was four weeks. They don't want to be the kind of diver that many here on scubaboard strive to be. They want quick.

Really...what the divers want? What choice do they have? A while back I spent a day in the Chicago area and just went from shop to shop. It's all the same training. Visit an area dive site. It's all the same stuff. There isn't much in the way of choice. It's pretty much all McDiving.
 
There is WAY too much concentration on margin in this industry. For whatever reason, scuba divers HATE to see a local scuba store making money. Don't know why it is, but that is how it is.

I think you are wrong here Phil. When I bought my first sets of gear, I thought I was getting a pretty good deal at 10% off MSRP. I didn't resent my LDS until I learned that I could have bought the same gear from Leisurepro for HALF the price I payed and all I would have had to give up was a rather unimportant mfgr warranty and the good graces of a shop that was not going to last long anyway. I like to see the LDS doing well. I just don't like to see them doing well because they charge much higher prices than other scuba retailer.
 
Hello hello, new to scuba and a Huge fan of these boards; unquestionably the Best rescource a diver can have at his/her disposal!

Ok so I'm looking over potential gear I have to buy and I cant help but say "***"on BCD's... 400... 500... 600 dollars or more usually...

unconscionable... Highwayfreakin'Robbery.

This is an inflatable bag with webbing that attaches to your back...


you cannot convince me that these Cost even $100 to make, in fact its probably Alot less than that... there's no "space age" tech here... design virtually unchanged in 30 years...


A clear-cut, text-book example of "Why do they charge so much?", "Because they can."


I hope ScubaL 's BC starts swaying people... Much more reasonably priced... Mnf. need to realize maybe they Dont need 5000% profit on that "inflatable backpack"...


Yeah, I am in total agreement with your thoughts. It is crazy that people will pay 700 dollars for a potato sack with straps and a cumberbund, it is a bag of air!!!!!!!:rofl3: Then I hear it said they are life support--oh hog wallow:confused:. The BC jacket, back inflate jackets with all of the doodads are a huge profit center for the industry which is why they are pushed and pushed and pushed so hard. They are not life support, they are not even actually needed for most diving, they are a luxury item largely. They have no life support or Coast Guard rating--look on the tag for yourself.

Once upon a time the SCUBA was the center of the divers gear, that included a tank block, regulator and harness, now in contrast the BC is seen as the center of the dive rig which is amazing in that the BC is not even part of a SCUBA. Yes, SCUBA is used as a noun, self contained underwater breathing apparatus and the patent for design did not include a bag of air. Now we have up and down levers and pushbutton elevator buttons and built in retractors with multiple D rings for every item on the LDS sucker rack. :no.

Lower your carbon footprint and leave all that junk in the store, return to minimalism, the new wave in diving :eyebrow:.

N
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/

Back
Top Bottom