We have many people, with very different backgrounds and experiences, all commenting on the situation from their own, often unique, perspectives. While there is, in some cases, rather great overlap concerning the capabilities and training practices of other diving communities, such knowledge is rarely reciprocal. For example: I have a lot of experience with what goes on in the scientific and sports diving communities, a fair amount of knowledge concerning commercial diving and professional PSD, and just a smattering of the military world. I'd be hard pressed to comment on training for pier construction or teaching the operation of military diver delivery vehicles. Similarly there are very few of you reading this who have any experience in the scientific diving community, so you assume that all you have to do is project your sports diving experiences, training and background ... a very risky assumption.
I doubt if many individuals in the sports community have any real knowledge of the scientific diving world. Many scientific divers are equally blind about other communities, I remember going to a dive show with 4 or 5 of my Assistant Team Leaders, these are folks whose diving knowledge and water skills would place them in the top tier of all the divers that I've known, yet one of them takes me aside and asks me if all the people here are divers? She went on to say that they couldn't possibly be, most of them did not look fit enough to pass a treadmill EKG (a requirement for scientific divers) and a lot of them smoked! She knew nothing at all about the sports diving world and was simply projecting her own experiences into places where it was not applicable.
I see a lot of that going on in this (and similar) threads. When I say that preventing a diver from going deeper should not be a big deal ... I'm not blowing smoke, the, "grab the valve and use an air siphon," approach to the problem is one that we teach in the rescue portion of our courses. Frankly, I thought that I was being generous saying that I expected the weakest Instructor I'd ever trained could pull it off, when the reality is that each and every diver I've ever trained probably could. But there's that difference in standards and training between communities, I could give you a long list of things, from a minimum two minute breath hold, to a twenty foot free dive against the buoyancy of a full 5 mil suit with no weightbelt, that we expect our people to be able to do routinely ... no fuss, no muss.
But I get painted into some bizarre, hairy chested diver, corner that really does not apply, by people who have not experienced what we do and how we train, and who assume that because it was not something they were exposed to in their sports diver training, it is not possible, or belongs in some strange realm of Dirk Pitt clones. In fact I am one of the most careful and risk adverse people that you will ever meet. We teach normal people, in many cases rather nerdy scientists, to perform at a level that is outside of what the sports diving community comprehends, its not magic, it is demanding, but it can be done with anyone who can pass a test of basic watermanship.
Epinephelus, please believe me when I say (irrelevant as I see it being to this entire conversation) that getting to the tank/valve of even someone who doesn't want you is no big deal if you can make contact with them, the only way that you're going to fail is if they swim away from you faster than you can catch up. It doesn't really matter that you might be able to keep your rescuer away from your backside, as long as that rescuer has any sort of a grip on you, you are going up.
Mrlipis, all the facts are not in, but from what is known I can not see where the DM was in any particular danger. While the tank valve is perhaps best, straps will work too. All that needed be done was to make contact, grab a hold, any hold, and establish positive buoyancy. While this may seem a daunting task to you, it really is not, and should be well within the capabilities of an Instructor. Perhaps you should defer a bit to those of us here who have considered, experimented with, practiced and teach the problem of how to handle a struggling victim underwater rather than believing that since it was not in your training it is impossible or impractical or some internet pipe dream.
The fact that dealing with a struggling victim underwater is, "certainly not a position that you would want to put yourself into," does not mean that it is in fact either a difficult problem or a dangerous one. It only means that you personally have made the decision that it is not something that you are prepared to deal with, and that's fine.
jkaterenchuk, a successful rescue with a conscious struggling victim takes a little training and practice, not much, but a little helps. You example of the incident in Thailand a month ago really just goes to show that there are likely many "diving leaders" out there who have not been trained, or thought it through, or practiced the needed techniques.
kyphur, we are clearly very different people. If a friend of mine had too much to drink and it required that I get into a physical altercation with him or her to prevent their driving and endangering them self and others, or that I park my car behind theirs, I'd do it (and have done it). But where I live there's almost no chance of seeing the police for a hour or so after you call.
