I spent many years working in the Bahamas (as recently as 2003) and that had been my experience as well. Come to think about it, it was almost identical to my experience with Belize.
Bahamas: Missing Female Diver
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I spent many years working in the Bahamas (as recently as 2003) and that had been my experience as well. Come to think about it, it was almost identical to my experience with Belize.
OneRestlessNative
Contributor
I just read this post in its entirety. 9 hours later and I am completely unnerved by some of the things that transpired. Naturally my heart goes out to the family and to the witnesses to this tragic event. I was born and raised in Florida and was swimming before I can even remember. The joke in my family is my real father was aqua-man and am regularly accused of having gills. At age 8 I was able to sit contently at the bottom of a pool for 3+ minutes. I feel more at home under the water in all its splendor than I do above the surface with most of the alien inhabitants that make me feel more and more isolated as each day of my dry life passes. My sub-oceanic experiences date back to an age of 5 or so as I clung to my dads tank sucking on his secondary having the time of my life chasing bugs around. (All at fairly shallow depth and within safe conditions) By age 10, I was piloting the boat while divers were down following bubbles around and assisting with all the gear, departing, and embarking. I made numerous dives as I grew up being a non-certified diver, and yes I knew the inherent dangers and limitations involved.( I can feel the heat and screams of horror before even hitting the submit button) At age 29 I figured it was about time to fork out the dough and take my OW cert with a well respected and very established LDS here in Melbourne. I am now seeking to get my AOW and possibly continue it further. I look forward to the classes, the awesome instructors, and trying to increase my wet time as life has derailed me from my passion. My instructors were top notch and made the whole experience one to remember although most of what I was taught was learned from my father. NONE! of these ill practices come recommended, so please do not commence with the beatings. =P
Now on to what bothers me most about this thread. Having every certification, degree, or title possible in no way makes any one person/corporation in any aspect of life responsible, capable, or for that matter deservant of the title or degree they hold. That fact is due to the simple human characteristics and the flaws that become us. The corruption of the society and the programs we create to govern ourselves and the greed that drives motivations. I am in no way discrediting the capable and truly deservant whom are dedicated and earned the accreditation's and uphold the honor of all it encompasses. This like so many other sports are safe within reason and will become deadly before one can even realize whats happened. (Yes, I have had 2 near death/drowing experiences, and not from those unmentionable acts listed above.) I truly honor and respect those that teach and guide, "BUT" it is ultimately up to "ME" to save my own arse be you paid or not, lifetime buddy, or complete stranger.!. I commend those who choose to to teach and truly feel for those tasked with willfull ignorance and disregard for others, and circumstances pushed upon you. As for this DM we speak of in this situation I can only imagine her frustration, confusion, horror, and grief. Afterall, how much was she rushed to accomodate?? To what degree was she briefed in the facts of the matter??? How many red flags were evident??? Who in their right mind can accost or assume her or their actions in that given situation????? There is something incredibly eerie and stomach turning that is going on in this situation we may never find the truth in. Any macho a$$ can sit behind their computer and insist what their actions would have been in this situation. The fact of the matter is no one knows what transpired 100%, except the DM and the deceased. I can only speculate what I would do and would never itnerject my reaction/action into this reality. I really hoped to find a final resolution from this tragedy and wish those involved never had to live this memory. To the members of the forum who choose to share the experience, I tip my hoodie to you. There is sooooo much to be taken from this tragedy. If I can summarize I wish to say to those that think they could single handedly drag me unwillingly to the surface from any depth is, you are SADLY mistaken !!! I am in controll of my life and if I have any controll of my death, deep, dark, and peacefull in the arms of my creator is how I will choose to pass!!! So it is written, and so it will be known, alone I will go; for I would never wish that burden of grief on anyone.
Sorry for the long winded interjection as this post left me with many thoughts and no real answers, so many things were wrong right from the beginning. Perhaps resolution, clartiy, and truth may follow; possibly not. But what I think we can all learn is to be responsible for ourselves and question those that lead us into the unknown. Our teachers, guides, buddies, and spouses are not baby sitters; as we are grown adults. If I am ever paired up with "YOU" and you are foolish and derelict resulting in me risking my own life to save you, I'm affraid I will just wave "buh bye" as the world is probably better off without you to begin with. I would expect no less if I were the conflictor/derelict. Sad but true!
***************
There are 3 thing I would love to question and truly think may be of the most importance within the industry??
1. As a person who is certified to teach, instruct, guide, rescue, and certify. Would it not be prudent to have the authorization to restrict, rescind/repossess/ suspend the license, and report the actions to the crediting agencies of the license holder and even the authorities in a worse case scenario? Leaving the individual to plead the case with the issuing agency? I believe if a corporation/entity as a regulator representing the community , collects funds, sets its standards as a licensing agency they should be fully responsible for the repossession/suspension as well !!!!!!!! Perhaps that might make people aware somewhat of their consequences and actions.
2. Proper medical evaluations by registered physicians within a regulatory board of registry and done in periodic yearly increments increasing with age????
3. Why am I forced to buy a license in the guise that I am being kept safe whilst I am excluded should I not pay up even though I may be perfectly capable of learning and training on my own self in this skill of recreational diving? Do mountain climbers need a card to go to 30,000? Does a skier need a card to do a triple black diamond?? Do i need a card to own or possess a 50 cal pistol? NOPE!!!!! which leads me to ask question number 1 and 2.......
I guess I should go post my
noob to the board post at this point, wishing everyone that reads this safe passage through the wet and dry in life!
Now on to what bothers me most about this thread. Having every certification, degree, or title possible in no way makes any one person/corporation in any aspect of life responsible, capable, or for that matter deservant of the title or degree they hold. That fact is due to the simple human characteristics and the flaws that become us. The corruption of the society and the programs we create to govern ourselves and the greed that drives motivations. I am in no way discrediting the capable and truly deservant whom are dedicated and earned the accreditation's and uphold the honor of all it encompasses. This like so many other sports are safe within reason and will become deadly before one can even realize whats happened. (Yes, I have had 2 near death/drowing experiences, and not from those unmentionable acts listed above.) I truly honor and respect those that teach and guide, "BUT" it is ultimately up to "ME" to save my own arse be you paid or not, lifetime buddy, or complete stranger.!. I commend those who choose to to teach and truly feel for those tasked with willfull ignorance and disregard for others, and circumstances pushed upon you. As for this DM we speak of in this situation I can only imagine her frustration, confusion, horror, and grief. Afterall, how much was she rushed to accomodate?? To what degree was she briefed in the facts of the matter??? How many red flags were evident??? Who in their right mind can accost or assume her or their actions in that given situation????? There is something incredibly eerie and stomach turning that is going on in this situation we may never find the truth in. Any macho a$$ can sit behind their computer and insist what their actions would have been in this situation. The fact of the matter is no one knows what transpired 100%, except the DM and the deceased. I can only speculate what I would do and would never itnerject my reaction/action into this reality. I really hoped to find a final resolution from this tragedy and wish those involved never had to live this memory. To the members of the forum who choose to share the experience, I tip my hoodie to you. There is sooooo much to be taken from this tragedy. If I can summarize I wish to say to those that think they could single handedly drag me unwillingly to the surface from any depth is, you are SADLY mistaken !!! I am in controll of my life and if I have any controll of my death, deep, dark, and peacefull in the arms of my creator is how I will choose to pass!!! So it is written, and so it will be known, alone I will go; for I would never wish that burden of grief on anyone.
Sorry for the long winded interjection as this post left me with many thoughts and no real answers, so many things were wrong right from the beginning. Perhaps resolution, clartiy, and truth may follow; possibly not. But what I think we can all learn is to be responsible for ourselves and question those that lead us into the unknown. Our teachers, guides, buddies, and spouses are not baby sitters; as we are grown adults. If I am ever paired up with "YOU" and you are foolish and derelict resulting in me risking my own life to save you, I'm affraid I will just wave "buh bye" as the world is probably better off without you to begin with. I would expect no less if I were the conflictor/derelict. Sad but true!
***************
There are 3 thing I would love to question and truly think may be of the most importance within the industry??
1. As a person who is certified to teach, instruct, guide, rescue, and certify. Would it not be prudent to have the authorization to restrict, rescind/repossess/ suspend the license, and report the actions to the crediting agencies of the license holder and even the authorities in a worse case scenario? Leaving the individual to plead the case with the issuing agency? I believe if a corporation/entity as a regulator representing the community , collects funds, sets its standards as a licensing agency they should be fully responsible for the repossession/suspension as well !!!!!!!! Perhaps that might make people aware somewhat of their consequences and actions.
2. Proper medical evaluations by registered physicians within a regulatory board of registry and done in periodic yearly increments increasing with age????
3. Why am I forced to buy a license in the guise that I am being kept safe whilst I am excluded should I not pay up even though I may be perfectly capable of learning and training on my own self in this skill of recreational diving? Do mountain climbers need a card to go to 30,000? Does a skier need a card to do a triple black diamond?? Do i need a card to own or possess a 50 cal pistol? NOPE!!!!! which leads me to ask question number 1 and 2.......
I guess I should go post my
noob to the board post at this point, wishing everyone that reads this safe passage through the wet and dry in life!ScooterSouthFlorida
Contributor
I would respectfully suggest that when/if you go for further certification, you ask your instructor to see if they can single handedly drag you unwillingwly to the surface.... People sometimes are amazed what another diver can do once they are 'on your 6' and gain control of your tank.
mikerault
Contributor
Short of releasing the BCD and tank and holding on to the weightbelt, once someone straddles your tank and has ahold of the valve you are like a turtle when someone has ahold of their shell, quite helpless! (Unless you have the neck of a snapping turtle!) From that position they can also get control of the inflator quite easily.
Mike
Mike
R
redacted
Guest
If I were the unwilling victim of such a maneuver, I may readily perceive that as an assault and defend myself accordingly. Something a would be rescuer should consider before he/she decides to try to drag a diver to the surface.
***************
There are 3 thing I would love to question and truly think may be of the most importance within the industry??
1. As a person who is certified to teach, instruct, guide, rescue, and certify. Would it not be prudent to have the authorization to restrict, rescind/repossess/ suspend the license, and report the actions to the crediting agencies of the license holder and even the authorities in a worse case scenario? Leaving the individual to plead the case with the issuing agency? I believe if a corporation/entity as a regulator representing the community , collects funds, sets its standards as a licensing agency they should be fully responsible for the repossession/suspension as well !!!!!!!! Perhaps that might make people aware somewhat of their consequences and actions.
2. Proper medical evaluations by registered physicians within a regulatory board of registry and done in periodic yearly increments increasing with age????
3. Why am I forced to buy a license in the guise that I am being kept safe whilst I am excluded should I not pay up even though I may be perfectly capable of learning and training on my own self in this skill of recreational diving? Do mountain climbers need a card to go to 30,000? Does a skier need a card to do a triple black diamond?? Do i need a card to own or possess a 50 cal pistol? NOPE!!!!! which leads me to ask question number 1 and 2.......
I guess I should go post my
1. As a shop owner, I have the right to restrict anyone from diving that I want. I don't think agencies have the capability of checking claims of incompetence for individual divers, nor do I think I trust them with making these determinations. We are also talking about a multifold increase in staff and bueracracy. Most agencies have their hands full with quality assurance for individual professional members (DMs, instructors).
2. There are areas of the world where medical exams are required for diving (and for certification). Sounds like a way to increase the cost of the sport for all, add to the beauracracy, and might not necessarily work, as many doctors are not familiar with dive medicine. Where do we draw the line? What conditions preclude diving? Who decides which conditions preclude diving? This would be a can of worms most would like to avoid.
3. You do not buy a license, you earn it (although I have seen my share of divers who might have bought/found theirs). You do not need certification to dive (as your post noted in the beginning), but you may need it to go out on a dive boat, buy gear or have your tanks filled. As a shop owner, I have the right to let you dive without certification, but I CHOOSE to only let certified divers get their tanks filled or dive from my boats.
I am somewhat curious as to the apparent contradiction betwwen questions 1,2 with #3. Questions 1&2 seem to hint at a need for more control, more beaucaracy for the agencies, while question 3 seems like a call for NO need for agencies.
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ItsBruce
Contributor
Is anyone interested in a separate forum / thread / conference to discuss what it means to be a dive buddy? The more I think about it the more confused I become.
I know that when I dive, I want to enjoy it. If I have to watch a buddy like a hawk and am a babysitter, I'm not going to enjoy the dive. I expect a buddy will feel the same way. At the same time, I like the notion of having someone available to help me if something goes wrong. Again, I expect a buddy will feel the same way. So, in order to get the benefit of having someone available to help if something goes wrong, I need to be willing to give up some freedom in my dive and take some responsibility for someone else.
A few days ago, someone commented that the pre-dive briefing should include a discussion about what the buddy team should do/expect in the event one or the other deviates from the dive plan. That is a very good point.
I know that when I dive, I want to enjoy it. If I have to watch a buddy like a hawk and am a babysitter, I'm not going to enjoy the dive. I expect a buddy will feel the same way. At the same time, I like the notion of having someone available to help me if something goes wrong. Again, I expect a buddy will feel the same way. So, in order to get the benefit of having someone available to help if something goes wrong, I need to be willing to give up some freedom in my dive and take some responsibility for someone else.
A few days ago, someone commented that the pre-dive briefing should include a discussion about what the buddy team should do/expect in the event one or the other deviates from the dive plan. That is a very good point.
bleeb
Contributor
OneRestlessNative
Contributor
I can see how one can gain total control over a victim. ONLY and if ONLY they are able to get behind/above that person, provided they don't just un-clip and slip out. ANY! frontal maneuvers could result in a very dangerous assault scenario and a present many combative possibilities even without a weapon. That is just my perception of my own capabilities and although I'm not gonna assault my instructor, friends, strangers for the sake of proof. I just feel it might be very intimidating to some and maybe impossible to "SAFELY" gain control of a combative person underwater at depth.
Thank you Cappyjohn, you read my post spot on. What good is an unregulated agency that "supposedly" oversees or regulates the industry with seemingly total disregard for the ultimate safety of the very people it claims to keep "SAFE?" You as a shop owner DI, DM, and Captain respectively seem to held some sort of liability and potential loss of livelihood merely on the faith that someone else did their job with only your limited contact and judgment to save your own butt. Once that incident unfolds at +100ft it becomes +100fold the problem in so many ways. It just seems like a total contradiction of principle to me for the most part and mostly a money making scam. There will always be these kind of problems and I can only assume there might be more as I look to the left of the page and see an "ONLINE" learn to dive advertisement right here on this very page!!!! I am in no way discrediting the agencies, I just feel that there needs to be more involvement by "THEM" to enforce and uphold the standards they set fourth to the public if they choose to be the regulatory agency setting standards serving the the public.
My father learned to dive in the military and passed his knowledge down to me and would only let me dive within my respective abilities. It was only in his presence would he allow me to use all equipment and we never dove deeper that 60ft. Here in Florida one could spend a lifetime diving and never have the need to exceed 40-60 ft due to the sheer amount of stuff to do. As My dad got older he dove less and less, and since he was my buddy so did I. That is somewhat my reasoning for getting certified and now as I seek to dive more I want to expand my capabilities, knowledge, and explore some more of the deeper and traveled regions available to me.
I don't always feel that more bureaucracy is always better or even necessary. I am simply questioning the current standards of bureaucracy implemented and governing this sport.
Thank you Cappyjohn, you read my post spot on. What good is an unregulated agency that "supposedly" oversees or regulates the industry with seemingly total disregard for the ultimate safety of the very people it claims to keep "SAFE?" You as a shop owner DI, DM, and Captain respectively seem to held some sort of liability and potential loss of livelihood merely on the faith that someone else did their job with only your limited contact and judgment to save your own butt. Once that incident unfolds at +100ft it becomes +100fold the problem in so many ways. It just seems like a total contradiction of principle to me for the most part and mostly a money making scam. There will always be these kind of problems and I can only assume there might be more as I look to the left of the page and see an "ONLINE" learn to dive advertisement right here on this very page!!!! I am in no way discrediting the agencies, I just feel that there needs to be more involvement by "THEM" to enforce and uphold the standards they set fourth to the public if they choose to be the regulatory agency setting standards serving the the public.
My father learned to dive in the military and passed his knowledge down to me and would only let me dive within my respective abilities. It was only in his presence would he allow me to use all equipment and we never dove deeper that 60ft. Here in Florida one could spend a lifetime diving and never have the need to exceed 40-60 ft due to the sheer amount of stuff to do. As My dad got older he dove less and less, and since he was my buddy so did I. That is somewhat my reasoning for getting certified and now as I seek to dive more I want to expand my capabilities, knowledge, and explore some more of the deeper and traveled regions available to me.
I don't always feel that more bureaucracy is always better or even necessary. I am simply questioning the current standards of bureaucracy implemented and governing this sport.
OneRestlessNative
Contributor
The logic behind my addition to this post and my thorough reading of the accounts lead me to believe that the deceased as spoken of should not have been permitted to dive much less even be in possession of a certification card. As well as a few other accounts other DM's, DI's have posted of their own experiences with so called trained certified divers. We buddy dive here in two's mostly because of the limited terrain and it just works out good for 2 groups of 2 with the room in the boat and the cycles of decompression and movement on available structure and viz.
The biggest and most unnerving thing about this story is the apparent arrogance of the deceased and the seeming lack of regard by the husband. On a dive of that caliber and over all water clarity "WHY" was the wife excluded and isolated from the hubby and partner. My understanding would lead me to believe that there could have been a 3 even 4 person buddy team if it was deemed she needed personal assistance or guidance. I sense some hostility, arrogance, and complete disregard for safety, physical, and mental well being of all involved at that location and trip. Those are just my own concerns and thoughts on this much unavoidable tragedy.
The biggest and most unnerving thing about this story is the apparent arrogance of the deceased and the seeming lack of regard by the husband. On a dive of that caliber and over all water clarity "WHY" was the wife excluded and isolated from the hubby and partner. My understanding would lead me to believe that there could have been a 3 even 4 person buddy team if it was deemed she needed personal assistance or guidance. I sense some hostility, arrogance, and complete disregard for safety, physical, and mental well being of all involved at that location and trip. Those are just my own concerns and thoughts on this much unavoidable tragedy.
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