Bahamas: Missing Female Diver

[TheScubaBOB]

Frankly, the suggestion that the rescuer is in any danger from the victim (except being dragged to the surface) seems very unfeasible to me.

YouTube - Fatal Diver's Accident in Blue Hole, Dahab episode 3

Granted there is some goofy TV stuff like the Tarot Cards but ignore that crap and look at how the two divers were found. Sure sounds like a failed rescue attempt.

 

[mrlipis]

I have investigated well over 2,000 diving fatalities,

Could you clarify investigated? Would this be on a first hand basis or would you consider this thread an investigation? I can only assume this would be a full time job for you.

I can not believe you are suggesting that a rescuer has never fallen victim. How about the Rouse's (The last dive)?

Frankly, the suggestion that the rescuer is in any danger from the victim (except being dragged to the surface) seems very unfeasible to me.

If we are talking about a trained rescuer and use the word unlikely rather than unfeasible, I would say this is fairly accurate and supports my earlier statement in regards to training. We are either dealing with an unresponsive diver or a panicked diver. In the case of the panicked diver he/she has one goal in mind, bolt to the surface. Our training would be more along the lines of keeping the diver down and or maintaining a controlled ascent. The thought or reality of dealing with a diver that is combative and doesn't want to go to the surface seems very far fetched and would not fall under the normal guidelines of a typical rescue which has become the focus of this particular incident.

 

[Epinephelus]

I have investigated well over 2,000 diving fatalities

Two thousand!
Wow!
Lets see, if you've been doing it full time for 40 years, that's one a week. Not bad, what with travel time to the sites & all, and the timing of accidents & all.
Maybe your definition of "investigate" differs a bit from mine. Perhaps you meant "researched" what others have "investigated."
E

 

[shoredivr]

Wondering how far the last two posters can go out on that limb.

 

[mrlipis]

Is it going out on a limb to challenge that statement? I'm sure it is plausible, I would just like to know more about that process. What does an investigation consist of? How many people die a year in scuba diving accidents? 150 in the U.S. is average.

 

[boulderjohn]

150 in the U.S. is average.

What is your source for that figure?

The only source I have is the annual DAN report for the U.S. and Canada combined. The most recent report is from 2007, which actually focuses on 2006. Here are the changing annual averages over the time since they have been doing these reports (p. 7):

1970-1979: 123.6
1980-1989: 90.3
1990-1999: 87.7
2000-1006: 85.6

The total for 2006 was 76. The highest number ever was 147 in 1976.

 

[mrlipis]

I googled it. I thought it was a high number. Maybe I should have done better research. Your numbers are probably more realistic and I should have known to go to Dan's statistics. My bad.
A very good trend however, less deaths per dives.

 

[Thalassamania]

Please, let's stay focused on what this part of the conversation is about, the question of: "is it reasonable, based on prior incidents, for a diving leader to be afraid that a potential victim will aggressively harm him or her in the course of an attempted rescue?"

Specifically we are dealing with ground truthing this exchange:

...

I'm simply saying that panicked divers have killed would-be rescuers in the past; ...

Can you cite a case?

Now, that clarified, to continue on:

YouTube - Fatal Diver's Accident in Blue Hole, Dahab episode 3

Granted there is some goofy TV stuff like the Tarot Cards but ignore that crap and look at how the two divers were found. Sure sounds like a failed rescue attempt.

I never said that there were not failed rescue attempts or that there were not double fatalities, there have been both. What I said was that, unlike swimming, there has never been a case where the victim in a diving accident forceably caused the death of one who was attempting a rescue, the concern that some on the board here are ascribing to the Instructor in this incident.

Could you clarify investigated? Would this be on a first hand basis or would you consider this thread an investigation? I can only assume this would be a full time job for you.

Yes, it was a full time job. It is generally considered good form to read people's profiles before asking questions that might be answered there.

I can not believe you are suggesting that a rescuer has never fallen victim. How about the Rouse's (The last dive)?

Please read my comments before dragging in cases that have no bearing on them. I have yet to see a case where a rescuer has fallen victim to the victim.

Two thousand!
Wow!
Lets see, if you've been doing it full time for 40 years, that's one a week. Not bad, what with travel time to the sites & all, and the timing of accidents & all.
Maybe your definition of "investigate" differs a bit from mine. Perhaps you meant "researched" what others have "investigated."
E

No I mean investigated, that means original data, primary sources, not review of what others have compiled. This includes but is not limited to: reviews of all documents, discussions with witnesses, conversations with coroners, examinations of equipment when possible, etc. All as part of a full time job funded by NOAA, NIOSH, OSHA, USCG and later on, in small part, DEMA.

Is it going out on a limb to challenge that statement? I'm sure it is plausible, I would just like to know more about that process. What does an investigation consist of? How many people die a year in scuba diving accidents? 150 in the U.S. is average.

Whether you've gone out on a limb or not is defined by how far you fall or how far you have to crawl back.

It may or may not be going out on a limb, per se, but it does not add to your credibility when you've not bothered to read my profile where my employment with the National Underwater Accident Data Center is mentioned.

What is your source for that figure?

The only source I have is the annual DAN report for the U.S. and Canada combined. The most recent report is from 2007, which actually focuses on 2006. Here are the changing annual averages over the time since they have been doing these reports (p. 7):

1970-1979: 123.6
1980-1989: 90.3
1990-1999: 87.7
2000-1006: 85.6

The total for 2006 was 76. The highest number ever was 147 in 1976.

I googled it. I thought it was a high number. Maybe I should have done better research. Your numbers are probably more realistic and I should have known to go to Dan's statistics. My bad.
A very good trend however, less deaths per dives.

Unfortunately, those numbers have some parameters that must be understood, as well as some other problems. The early numbers from the NUADC are for U.S. citizens, worldwide, and any nationality who died in U.S. waters, based on active searching for cases as well as alerts from a network of contacts and several newspaper clipping services. I believe the DAN data is for any nationality, and any place, but passively reported with some "medical" causes screened out. Additionally, even if you accept the numbers as valid numerators, there are no validated denominators.

 

[bsee65]

In my experience, the Caribbean DM/DG tend to instruct their divers to "follow me" and don't get in front and don't go deeper. So slipping deeper, especially intentionally, is quite simple if that is what the diver wants to do.

True, but it has absolutely nothing to do with this incident.

 

[TheScubaBOB]

I never said that there were not failed rescue attempts or that there were not double fatalities, there have been both. What I said was that, unlike swimming, there has never been a case where the victim in a diving accident forceably caused the death of one who was attempting a rescue, the concern that some on the board here are ascribing to the Instructor in this incident.

Again, take this in light of a discussion. I'm not trying to argue, just looking to learn from those with more knowledge than myself.

Looking back at the discussion, the issue wasn't limited to forced death of rescuer at the hands of a diver but a Panicked Diver having killed a would-be rescuer.

Granted in my example you can't say for certian that whichever of the two was attempting the rescue didn't cause his own demise but the fact that the divers were holding onto each other would lead some to believe that whoever expired first (diver with gas in cylinder maybe) had a death grip on the diver attempting the rescue.

FWIW, I would think that anytime someone attempts to rescue a panicked diver at depth and the rescuer also dies that is considered a panicked diver killing the rescuer (no intent required).

But as you can see below, there was never the stipulation of the victim forceably causing the rescuer's death. I do agree that one of the theories of this thread does involve forceable resistance.

Here is the exchange as extracted from the thread:

I'm simply saying that panicked divers have killed would-be rescuers in the past

Can you cite a case?

Thailand about a month ago. You draw your own conclussions if the now deceased diver while mask clearing panicked and 13 year experienced instructor, whom has not been located and assumed deceased as well is a result of a panicked diver.

You might also want to consider how could such a thing happen to such an experienced instructor if real rescues were as easy as you have voiced your opinion on in the recent White Star Quarry incident.

Start with pg10 on this thread in which the missing divers were first reported.
LK's PATTAYA BASH THREAD

Then seperate thread on the accident.

Samaesan diving accident

John

I have investigated well over 2,000 diving fatalities, this is the first such case I've heard of and it has no factual basis in terms of what happen to the rescuer, only speculation on the part of many who are hardly qualified to do more than speculate on the internet.