Bahamas: Missing Female Diver

[bowlofpetunias]

Now that I think about it I think underwater comms should be a standard. I have made every dive except the one on this thread with a slate. I keep thinking back time and time again about it, we were in tropical water, a perfect day, what could go wrong? The fact that I couldn't find my slate that morning and chose to dive without one dispite seeing them in the dive shop as I waited for what seemed like forever while all of the divers checked in for our dive. Never again.... Ever.. I read the posts saying if a diver is intent on putting themselves in harms way you shouldn't risk your own safety, then why do I see Police talking to jumpers? If you saw a person about to jump of a building would you not say anything? My sadness is not for the death of Mrs W, but for the fact that I feel I could have saved her. I saw what was happening, could see that my wife was having a bad dive, but most likely woulnt have died had I left her, but didn't react to every thing that I felt was right. I had seconds to make the call and I feel it was the wrong one. I know if a person were to follow the rules of diving it was the right call that's a no brainer, but imagine if it were your spouse. True she should never ever be in that situation, but she was!! Imagine another diver felt like they could help but chose not to. I know it wasn't my responsibility and I have always told my wife never even rely on me to save you if you have a bad dive, I truly believe any diver should be 100 percent equipped with the equipment or skills to take care of themselves should anything go wrong. A buddy is truly a last resort, any diver who places themselves in the care of a buddy is foolishly miss placing trust and risking their life.

I am really concerned about you Only halcyon! :consolation: IMHO you are taking on too much responsibility for things that were beyond your control. Have you talked to anyone qualified to address issues with regards to Post Traumatic Stress? Seriously you witnessed a traumatic event and it seems to me based on my past training on Critical Incident Debriefing/defusing and Post Traumatic Stress that you would benefit from some qualified support. I can only look at your posts and say I m concerned based on the way I read them.

The police talk to jumpers/gunmen/hostage takers from a safe distance. If they are doing their job right .. they are not putting themselves at risk. Police, Fire and Ambulance have protocols that deal with risks and indicate that there is a time when you do not proceed due to the weight of the risk.. just like the DM in this case!

could see that my wife was having a bad dive, but most likely woulnt have died had I left her, but didn't react to every thing that I felt was right.

That statement screams out to me! MOST LIKELY.. means your responsibility to your wife and dive buddy were higher than to Mrs W. and choosing to use those words now means you made the right choice then!

You had no role or opportunity to convince Mrs W not to conduct that dive so you had no role in the choices that put her in danger! You did have an opportunity to contribute to your wife's choices therefor a responsibility to put her safety first!

I am not sure what role you feel a slate would have had in this situation. The DM was in contact with Mrs W and got pushed away! A Com unit telling Mrs W to co-operate I personally doubt would have got more compliance.

The rules of diving have been developed to keep as many people safe as possible by following them. Those rules in many cases have been developed at great cost in injuries and lives lost I am so glad your life wasn't one of them! I am so sorry you thought that you could help but while I wasn't there to judge it I question this.. if the DM was close and couldn't how could you from farther away get to someone safely who was purposefully descending and convince her to listen to YOU?

I know I wasn't there so my opinion is flawed based on what I have read. I will tell you that based on my experience in the Ambulance service having dealt with many emergency situations.. IMHO you made the right choice in those seconds!

Honestly in answer to your question... if this situation had involved myself or my husband I would still think you made the right choice! IMHO nobody has a right to expect that others will put their lives on the line because of the choices they make for themselves as adults!

 

[DandyDon]

I posted some similar suggestions earlier but bowlofpetunias put it very well. Do read her post closely and accept it please...

 

[NoDiver]

Hear, hear BoP.

I have had exactly the same thoughts on Only Halcyon beating himself up over this.

It's more than likely (given what I have read of the incident) that Mrs W would not have thanked you for intervening, and you may well have had your mask and reg kicked off and out in the process of trying to help her.

You said your wife was not having a good dive, what if your wife had a panic attack when you went off in aid of Mrs W?

I'm no diver (yet) but given the distance you described (between you and Mrs W) is it at all feasible that you could have caught up with her...given that she was actively finning down? The DM couldn't catch her from where she was...how the hell do you imagine you could have...given that you were significantly further away?

I really think you ought to tale BoP's advice and get some professional help with this.

You really ,REALLY, should not be taking any responsibilty for this AT ALL!!

 

[fbosch]

I saw your other post about Micronesia in 2001, so you were not new in 2003. I'm curious about some of your comments...?

Did you expect the non-DM photographer to lead the dive,
Yes
How much diving have you done; how much year to year? I don't expect much from a DM really after the dive briefing other than to lead if I care to follow closely.

We were supposed to follow her, and she took off in a strong current,


So if your wife was diving as your buddy, why did you two not descend and ascend together?

We did

Were you diving your gear or rental? Was the problem something that could have been prevented with better gear checking?

their gear


I don't guess the flaky woman was anyone's responsibility but what set her off anyway?

Because I was upset, she flipped out!


The purpose of this forum is to learn from discussion. Hope you don't mind my questions?

Why would I?

 

[DandyDon]

Ok, I see that you're posting to remarks & questions from a few weeks ago, and having a little difficulty quoting and replying to me, so let me help organize here....

My wife and I dove with Stewart Cove in '03 and were assigned to a non DM photographer who did not wait for us in a strong current, and we had no idea where she went. I had some trouble with my fin and had to go back. I was soo upset because I was all alone with no one to help me. On the boat this flaky woman freaked and had a total melt down, as if she was the one who was in danger. Never dive with them, they are nuts and totally unprofessional!

I saw your other post about Micronesia in 2001, so you were not new in 2003. I'm curious about some of your comments...?

Did you expect the non-DM photographer to lead the dive...

Yes

How much diving have you done; how much year to year? I don't expect much from a DM really after the dive briefing other than to lead if I care to follow closely.

We were supposed to follow her, and she took off in a strong current,

So if your wife was diving as your buddy, why did you two not descend and ascend together?

We did

Were you diving your gear or rental? Was the problem something that could have been prevented with better gear checking?

their gear

I don't guess the flaky woman was anyone's responsibility but what set her off anyway?

Because I was upset, she flipped out!

The purpose of this forum is to learn from discussion. Hope you don't mind my questions?

Why would I?

Glad you don't mind discussing your experiences with me. Ok, so reading over this in this layout - you skipped some of my questions but I gather than you'd been diving a few years, but relied on rental gear when traveling, expected the dive leader to be a caretaker in the water, and was not "left all alone" since your wife stayed with you but did expect the dive leader to take care of your problems.

Well, I guess we just have a number of different views on diving. I make sure that I dive my own gear whatever it takes for me to get it there, but if a bag was delayed an my fins were not available - I'd certainly checkout the rental fins well on the dock before boarding the boat to go to sea. If I do have problems in the water tho, those are the responsibility of my buddy and myself - to resolve or at least survive. Dive leaders are there to lead dives in some cases altho many of my dives have been without one; if they supply one, it's up to me to keep up or take care of myself.

Sometimes we do have to call a dive after spending so much money and time to be in a foreign location, but if I become upset - I don't want to take it out on other people on the boat.

This was all 8 years ago tho. I suppose you found ways to prevent similar problems since...

 

[capercanuck]

Hey Halcyon,
Just some friendly advice, nothing more.

I've been a firefighter for 15+ years and have been involved in some pretty messy, troubling recues/recovery situations.

One that sticks in my mind is a 20 yr old girl that was pinned under a truck (deceased), with her 3 month old baby sitting in his car seat, safe and sound, on the shoulder of the road after being ejected from the vehicle.

I'm detailing this for you because I relive this more often than anyone ever should. I go over the details wondering what I could have done differntly for the girl. I couldn't sleep for a long time because of this one incident. That was 5 years ago and I still feel the effects. I should have been able to brush it off but I can't. PTS debriefings and open discussions with other firefighters have helped. I hope your discussions on this board help in someway.

I see from your posts that your line of thinking is very similar to my reasoning after my experience. "I could have/should have done more."

Noone should have to carry the weight you appear to be carrying. You were simply attempting to enjoy a dive and you were drawn into a situation that you had absolutely no influence on.

I wish you well.

 

[danclem]

Have not visited this topic for quite a while, but thought a few comments might be in order.

First, Stuart Cove's operations on my dives with them during this time period were top notch. The only problem I noted in the accident report to the police and investigators were the fact that there were no binoculars on board. Staff were very good.

Second, Halcyon, I don't think slates would have been much assistance. And you may or may not have been able to get her to the surface. It happened. If weights were dropped or her BC were inflated at 90'-100', what would the results have been? Changing a diver's angle is one thing, safely getting them to the surface is another issue.

What was troubling to me was that the entire dive group, with the exception of your wife and myself, I think, wanted (and did) make a second dive. I have never seen something like this after an almost certain fatality. It was a good opportunity for me to write up notes and positions, but very unusual in my experience.

Third, my feeling is that it is totally inappropriate to blame the DM. The bottom line is that diving is an inherently dangerous sport. We will never know the full story, but from what I have been told the victim should not have been diving for health reasons. Similar parallel to sailors or climbers who go out unprepared and expect the Coast Guard or Mountain Rescue to save them. Sometimes it simply is not possible.

I see so many divers, especially at tropical destinations, who, in my opinion, have no business being in the water: out of shape, hung-over, dive once every year or two, don't know how to use equipment (dive computers!), unrealistic view of their diving abilities, etc. Is it the DM's fault if someone with these condition has a problem? It is unrealistic to think a DM could resolve all issues.

Two weeks ago in Cabo I grabbed a woman's fin and rear dump valve as she started rocketing to the surface because she pushed the wrong button on her BCD and added, rather than dumped air, at 70'. The DM was ahead of us. Would it have been his fault if she had breached like a whale and embolized?

Sometimes tragedies happen. It is unfortunate. But it is neither an operator nor a DM who made the decision for someone to dive. There are inherent risks that we all need to recognize and do our best to mitigate.

 

[Thalassamania]

The fault lies somewhere between the agencies that sanction inadequate courses that result in divers who are: "out of shape, hung-over, dive once every year or two, don't know how to use equipment (dive computers!), unrealistic view of their diving abilities, etc.," the instructors who teach such courses, the operators who take such divers out into the ocean and the DMs who know that is the case. Do the divers' have some responsibility? Sure ... but keep in mind that they are brainwashed into thinking that they're the bomb; but when there are problems the aforementioned all bark, "diving is an inherently dangerous sport." Seems a bit hypocritical to me.

 

[Rick Murchison]

... they are brainwashed ...

Brain dead may be more accurate.
But we'll just never agree on that one. There are those of us who fall on the personal responsibility side, and those who feel everyone's misfortune is always somebody else's fault.
That doesn't excuse the behavior of those who intentionally mislead folks - but it doesn't excuse those who go through life broadcasting "lie to me" either.

Rick

 

[bowlofpetunias]

I have been debating commenting on this but what the heck.

I would be pretty ticked off if some DM or dive operator told me they wouldn't let me dive because I am an overweight, rather unfit 60 year old. I personally think there are a lot of trim, fit party hardy, high risk taking macho younger divers who are a greater risk to themselves and their fellow divers than I will ever be.

I personally think I have the right to make an informed choice for myself. I am more than competent to decide what dive I should or should not take. I don't expect someone else to take away my right to make my own decisions and suffer or enjoy the consequences of doing so. My family know that I do not think it is appropriate to try to lay blame on others for my choices freely made. That isn't to say that I wouldn't want someone to be held responsible for negligence .. ie contaminated air. Turning a blind eye to negligence is tantamount to sentancing another diver to death.

I once had a buddy tell me that if he was told he had a terminal illness he would take a one way dive That may happen more than we think! I don't question his right to that decision if he were to make it but I do question his right to do it in a way that traumatizes other people. Could that be the case here