Baggage fees.. Tightening the Screws

[ccannon707]

The other thing I like about Kayak is it shows the times of all the possible flights as well as the total # of hours your travel segments really come to. There are always flights that are less expensive than the ones I eventually choose, but usually they involve a layover of 7+ hours. Or leave Cancun at 7am (making staying a night at a hotel on that side necessary), or land at SFO at 12:15am when the last airport bus to my area leaves at 12:30am. They also have a monthly calendars that let you know when flights will tend to be less or more expensive.I recently went to the AA website to peruse flights - it was so uninformative and clumsy I raced back to Kayak. It is a good website.

 

[cvchief]

Cars and houses are more occasional purchases, and are negotiable. Even there, I walk into a car dealership and the first thing I do is ask for the on-the-road price. I work from there.

Do you ever REALLY know if you got stuck?

I generally avoid eBay, because there are extremely few occasions where I cannot get it from a "legitimate" retailer for the same or less, precisely because of the shipping. If I am using eBay, it is usually because I can't find it elsewhere.

Having to add sales tax is a PITA, but at least there you know what you are adding - it is predictable.

Well I have done pretty well on Ebay now and again.

There is nothing predictable about taxes and fees and surcharges and all the rest with air travel. It is a constantly moving landscape, both in terms of the types and number of different non-included charges, and in the size of those charges.

Well maybe flying on 3 or so trips a year, I don't find it that big a deal. With Kayak, I get close for the days generally I want to go. The additional. Airtran is gonna make me pay for a decent seat and most want something for a bag. Generally though the choice ends up being clear for me.

 

[cvchief]

The other thing I like about Kayak is it shows the times of all the possible flights as well as the total # of hours your travel segments really come to. There are always flights that are less expensive than the ones I eventually choose, but usually they involve a layover of 7+ hours. Or leave Cancun at 7am (making staying a night at a hotel on that side necessary), or land at SFO at 12:15am when the last airport bus to my area leaves at 12:30am. They also have a monthly calendars that let you know when flights will tend to be less or more expensive.I recently went to the AA website to peruse flights - it was so uninformative and clumsy I raced back to Kayak. It is a good website.

I love the little sliders, like length of trip combine with the 3 days either side. It even offered a split trip with us coming in through Cancun and back out of Coz for a good price.

 

[gcarter]

That's an overly general statement I think, and wrong. It just depends on what you're looking for. Real shipping costs that the seller needs to pass along can be excessive, especially on heavier items, but the packing & handling costs may be much lower for the cottage business, or just more efficient companies, so the bottom line will vary. It's easy to enough to compare...

Should put this one in context: Canada.

Unless the seller is using the USPS, it is a waste of time. Same for any US source. Brokerage and clearance fees, independent of duties, usually adds $50+ to whatever you ordered when the seller ships with UPS. On top of already excessive shipping costs already charged. It is not uncommon tosee something with a sub-$10 buy-it-now and a > $20 shipping cost.

 

[gcarter]

Do you ever REALLY know if you got stuck?

I always start with spending the money to get true costs for the vehicle I want, including details of all the incentives etc between the factory and the dealer that are generally hidden. In many cases, dealer invoice less advertised rebates is still too much to pay. I'll pay them what I consider a reasonable commission for the sale, but I am not going to play the game their way.

 

[cvchief]

I always start with spending the money to get true costs for the vehicle I want, including details of all the incentives etc between the factory and the dealer that are generally hidden. In many cases, dealer invoice less advertised rebates is still too much to pay. I'll pay them what I consider a reasonable commission for the sale, but I am not going to play the game their way.

That in itself is quite alot of work. There was a city near us that started its own vehicle bid program. The guy that ran it lived for figuring the actual car price. He went through the whole explanation with me. There was all kind of talk of triple net and such to actually get to that bottom price. Fascinating bit of info. It was as I say quite intense. You would not understand it per se unless someone explained the methodology. (I don't mean you-you as you must be doing this already) If you do that with cars, then figuring an airline ticket should be a breeze.

 

[budaman]

I always start with spending the money to get true costs for the vehicle I want, including details of all the incentives etc between the factory and the dealer that are generally hidden. In many cases, dealer invoice less advertised rebates is still too much to pay. I'll pay them what I consider a reasonable commission for the sale, but I am not going to play the game their way.

What do you consider a reasonable commission? Are you figuring in what the salesperson is paid, how bout the office workers that have to process the title & fees. Interest the dealer pays on the vehicles....they aren't given to the dealer for free. Do you expect the car to be cleaned & full of gas when you take delivery? You'd be surprised at how many people think they shouldn't have to pay transportation....ever priced what it would cost to ship something that weighed 3000lbs from Japan to your city. Is there money below the invoice....of course. Holdback is roughly 2% of the base invoice amount...doesn't matter if there are $10,000 of package options, the H/B is the same. The rest of the hidden money on the invoice is tied to advertising and facility standards. If the dealer doesn't spend matching funds, they don't get that money. Now, there is sometimes Dealer Cash or Rebates available on certain models. Difference in those two are DC doesn't need to be disclosed to the customer, Rebates do. These amounts along with their qualifications are easily found on the internet if you do a little searching. Good rule of thumb for quick figure of invoice less H/B would be to multiply the MSRP by 90%. Most manufacturers will have 8-9% markup....this does not include limited production or highline manufacturers.

By the way, do any of you know how much markup is in the last TV or Fridge you bought? How bout the house you just built.....wish all the consumer advocates would put out that info like they do to the car business.

Oh, one other thing...the salesperson. When you go out & jerk him around for 2 or 3 hours each day for a couple of days showing you the different models and equipment, and then call another dealer & he beats the deal by $50, so you go there......that salesperson gets zip,nada.

Ok, off my soapbox....back to the regular channel.

Mike

 

[gcarter]

That in itself is quite alot of work. There was a city near us that started its own vehicle bid program. The guy that ran it lived for figuring the actual car price. He went through the whole explanation with me. There was all kind of talk of triple net and such to actually get to that bottom price. Fascinating bit of info. It was as I say quite intense. You would not understand it per se unless someone explained the methodology. (I don't mean you-you as you must be doing this already) If you do that with cars, then figuring an airline ticket should be a breeze.

LOL I couldn't be bothered to do that kind of legwork, there are services out there that will provide that info for a fee.

 

[gcarter]

What do you consider a reasonable commission? Are you figuring in what the salesperson is paid, how bout the office workers that have to process the title & fees. Interest the dealer pays on the vehicles....they aren't given to the dealer for free. Do you expect the car to be cleaned & full of gas when you take delivery? You'd be surprised at how many people think they shouldn't have to pay transportation....ever priced what it would cost to ship something that weighed 3000lbs from Japan to your city. Is there money below the invoice....of course. Holdback is roughly 2% of the base invoice amount...doesn't matter if there are $10,000 of package options, the H/B is the same. The rest of the hidden money on the invoice is tied to advertising and facility standards. If the dealer doesn't spend matching funds, they don't get that money. Now, there is sometimes Dealer Cash or Rebates available on certain models. Difference in those two are DC doesn't need to be disclosed to the customer, Rebates do. These amounts along with their qualifications are easily found on the internet if you do a little searching. Good rule of thumb for quick figure of invoice less H/B would be to multiply the MSRP by 90%. Most manufacturers will have 8-9% markup....this does not include limited production or highline manufacturers.

By the way, do any of you know how much markup is in the last TV or Fridge you bought? How bout the house you just built.....wish all the consumer advocates would put out that info like they do to the car business.

Oh, one other thing...the salesperson. When you go out & jerk him around for 2 or 3 hours each day for a couple of days showing you the different models and equipment, and then call another dealer & he beats the deal by $50, so you go there......that salesperson gets zip,nada.

Ok, off my soapbox....back to the regular channel.

Mike

Wow, make assumptions much?

* I don't buy vehicles that have to be shipped 5,000 miles.
* I don't jerk sales people around. I get their price, give them mine, and they get one crack at getting it right. I do not use sales people to do any of my research, I already know what I want when we start the conversation. If a sales person is willing to deal with me s/he gets an easy walk-in that takes only as long as the paperwork.
* I do product costing for a living. I do cost plus price buildups for bid responses. I am familiar with the process, and I pay a reasonable commission that both covers their true costs and allows for a profit.

 

[ggunn]

First off, I really detest it when people use the F-word - Free. None of it was ever free. Ever. It was not a seperate charge, but it was never free. No business ever gives you anything for free. Somebody is paying for it.

Secondly, please point out the "whine". If all commentary is "whining", then please stop "whining" about my post. I personally do not see anything wrong with commenting on or criticizing the status quo. If you are content to go through life simply saying "it's a futile exercise. It is what it is.", that is your perogative. I choose not to be so accepting of shoddy treatment.

I understand the "why" of their marketing approach. I do not agree that this is their only option, or that it is not possible to break from the pack and do it differently. And if it is excess capacity that is the problem, why are they constantly adding new routes and flights? Why are they not cutting to get to a supply - demand place where they can be competitive and still make money? Suggesting that it is a capacity issue is a gross over simplification of the issues underlying the inability of the airlines to run a profitable business. It is a factor, but far from being the only one.

Well then, since you've got such a deep understanding of how an airline should be run, why don't you start your own? Otherwise, what exactly is it that you mean to do about this "shoddy treatment" that I am so accepting of? Talk is cheap.

One reason I accept it is that it really isn't a big deal to me. There are always options; you could pay extra to sit up in first class in those wide comfy seats and not have to wait in line with the slobbering masses to get aboard. Or you could stay home; that'll show 'em!

You accuse me of oversimplification, but to assume that since I don't raise hell about the minor inconveniences (yes, minor, in my worldview. YMMV) involved in flying that that means that I "go through life simply saying 'it's a futile exercise. It is what it is.'" about everything I encounter, what is that but a gross oversimplification? I choose my fights, and this is one I do not choose. That doesn't mean I never choose to fight. I try not to tilt at windmills, though.

I do a simple cost/benefit analysis when I buy an airline ticket, and if it's worth it, all things considered, I plunk down. If not, well... not. If you are surprised when you get your Visa bill, then you didn't try very hard to keep track of the numbers. It's really not that hard to find out exactly what the bottom line is going to be.

It is very easy to go onto an internet forum and bluster about how much better you could run the airlines; it is quite another thing to actually run one. Drop me an email, though, when your airline starts running flights to Cozumel with wide seats, big overhead bins, streamlined boarding, no charge for checked bags or meals, and what-you-see-is-what-you-get pricing. I'll probably buy a ticket.