It is a basic skill with some instructors.Carribeandiver:
Badly trained?
- Thread starter aquakiwi
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Onecabernetnut
Guest
Being a fairly new diver and having recently gone through the PADI AOW course, I would agree totally that more dives = more experience and hopefully a better diver. I did the AOW course to gain more experience diving with a dive instructor present.
The one thing that seems to be missing from this thread however is why are "poor" students given their C cards in the first place. How many people that take the classes are actually flunked out and don't pass go? There seem to be enough instructors posting to this thread that this could be answered informally. Are classes being given based on the following: OW or AOW class = being present (not necessarily paying attention) + paying $ = certification? If the instructors are not flunking out the people who shouldn't be diving in the first place, just to get paid, it seems unusual to then turn around and complain about all the lousy divers in the world. Shouldn't we be complaining about the instructors who pass these problems on to someone else?
The one thing that seems to be missing from this thread however is why are "poor" students given their C cards in the first place. How many people that take the classes are actually flunked out and don't pass go? There seem to be enough instructors posting to this thread that this could be answered informally. Are classes being given based on the following: OW or AOW class = being present (not necessarily paying attention) + paying $ = certification? If the instructors are not flunking out the people who shouldn't be diving in the first place, just to get paid, it seems unusual to then turn around and complain about all the lousy divers in the world. Shouldn't we be complaining about the instructors who pass these problems on to someone else?
PerroneFord
Contributor
Onecabernetnut:
Divers must meet the minimum standard to pass. Read the standards sometime, and you'll have your answer.
PerroneFord
Contributor
Simple solution. Expire the cards. Just like a drivers license. No valid card, no fills, no boat rides.
And expire the cards for instructors too. Every five years, mandatory review. I watched my cave instructor do an OW course last year. Old style. Course was 6 full days. Two students passed, one did not. The one who didin't didn't deserve to.
I think it's absolutely criminal that people can get OW cards without displaying even a rudimentary understand of how to achieve neutral buoyancy in the water. And that doesn't mean finning up all dive.
And expire the cards for instructors too. Every five years, mandatory review. I watched my cave instructor do an OW course last year. Old style. Course was 6 full days. Two students passed, one did not. The one who didin't didn't deserve to.
I think it's absolutely criminal that people can get OW cards without displaying even a rudimentary understand of how to achieve neutral buoyancy in the water. And that doesn't mean finning up all dive.
Tollie:
PerroneFord:
Look at your two statements above. If divers can get certified without being any good in the first place, what good would it do to have certifications expire? What qualifies the agencies to decide who dives and who doesn't when they certify divers at such a low skill level from the start? Should college degrees expire too? I won't live long enough to be able to stay out of the water so long that I couldn't meet the requirements of an OW course.
Remember, a dive certification isn't a license. It simply documents completion of training. I think it's a mistake to put a company...for profit...who generally seels junk in any kind or regulatory position. I already have the government to put up with but, at least, I get to vote. The certification agencies just do what they want.
PerroneFord
Contributor
MikeFerrara:
GUE expires cards for divers and instructors. Do you feel this is wrong?
Mountain Dog
Contributor
I am really puzzled by all this criticism of the certifying agencies when it comes to discussing diver skills. What ever happened to personal responsibility? I didn't expect PADI to make me a great diver. I expected PADI to have developed a training program which I could use to make MYSELF a good diver.
When I took my OW and AOW courses I made it very clear to my instructors that I was there to learn everything I could. I pushed THEM. I studied everything in the book. I also read everything I could from every other source I could find. Then I used that information as my basis for asking them questions. I wasn't satisfied with just getting the cards...I demanded the knowledge to back up the privilege of carrying those cards.
When I let my instructors know that I was there to maximize my training, they were eager to meet my challenge. Being a good student is every bit as important as having a good instructor. If you expect to be spoon-fed, you will get a spoonful. Grabbing the spoon with your own hands is when the feasting begins.
Mountain Dog
When I took my OW and AOW courses I made it very clear to my instructors that I was there to learn everything I could. I pushed THEM. I studied everything in the book. I also read everything I could from every other source I could find. Then I used that information as my basis for asking them questions. I wasn't satisfied with just getting the cards...I demanded the knowledge to back up the privilege of carrying those cards.
When I let my instructors know that I was there to maximize my training, they were eager to meet my challenge. Being a good student is every bit as important as having a good instructor. If you expect to be spoon-fed, you will get a spoonful. Grabbing the spoon with your own hands is when the feasting begins.
Mountain Dog
PerroneFord
Contributor
First,
A new student, uness they have been around divers, really doesn't know whether their training is being maximized or not. Second, a new student needs to be lucky enough to have an instructor who is WILLING to push them.
When I got OW, I didn't know anything about SCUBA, and there was no internet to go learn anything. Today, new divers or those interested can do a lot of homework, so I somewhat agree there.
But it seems most people just want to go jump in the water... and that's cool too.
A new student, uness they have been around divers, really doesn't know whether their training is being maximized or not. Second, a new student needs to be lucky enough to have an instructor who is WILLING to push them.
When I got OW, I didn't know anything about SCUBA, and there was no internet to go learn anything. Today, new divers or those interested can do a lot of homework, so I somewhat agree there.
But it seems most people just want to go jump in the water... and that's cool too.
Mountain Dog
Contributor
I absolutely agree that contact with more experienced divers is necessary to not only assess one's training and current skill level, but also to constantly improve in both areas. I know that I have a long way to go in my training. That's why I immediately joined a local dive club, spent today in the pool with the club, joined the Scubaboard, and have absorbed two shelves full of dive-related books.
My other vice is motorcycling, an area in which I have a far greater depth of knowledge at this point, than I do in diving. So, let me draw some parallels from that world. Not one single motorcycle rider has ever graduated from a training course with the skills necessary to be a proficient motorcyclist. But the fact is, the agencies that run the courses can only provide a basic set of skills to help a rider get started in the sport. Just as in diving, there is no substitute for practice. It is incumbent upon that novice rider to understand that he/she is currently a danger to themselves and everyone around them, and that the only way to mitigate that danger is to ride, ride, ride...and do so within the boundaries of their current skill set. Personal responsibility must take over.
Maybe I got lucky. Maybe I just happened to find scuba instructors who did care, and who were willing to go the extra mile. Maybe we do need to push the agencies to improve their definition of "basic set of skills". But let's do so in positive ways, rather than just issuing blanket condemnations. I don't see the point in that.
Mountain Dog
My other vice is motorcycling, an area in which I have a far greater depth of knowledge at this point, than I do in diving. So, let me draw some parallels from that world. Not one single motorcycle rider has ever graduated from a training course with the skills necessary to be a proficient motorcyclist. But the fact is, the agencies that run the courses can only provide a basic set of skills to help a rider get started in the sport. Just as in diving, there is no substitute for practice. It is incumbent upon that novice rider to understand that he/she is currently a danger to themselves and everyone around them, and that the only way to mitigate that danger is to ride, ride, ride...and do so within the boundaries of their current skill set. Personal responsibility must take over.
Maybe I got lucky. Maybe I just happened to find scuba instructors who did care, and who were willing to go the extra mile. Maybe we do need to push the agencies to improve their definition of "basic set of skills". But let's do so in positive ways, rather than just issuing blanket condemnations. I don't see the point in that.
Mountain Dog
PerroneFord
Contributor
I agree, blanket condemnation is not the most contructive methodology. However, someone, or rather a large group of divers, need to explain in emphatic terms to the agencies, that the training is not what it could be, or even what it should be, and you can't lay it all at the feet of the instructors. The agency bears responsibility for the ambiguity in it's standards. It needs to be corrected.
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