Badly trained?

[Scuba Cowboy]

I am really puzzled by all this criticism of the certifying agencies when it comes to discussing diver skills. What ever happened to personal responsibility? I didn't expect PADI to make me a great diver. I expected PADI to have developed a training program which I could use to make MYSELF a good diver.

When I took my OW and AOW courses I made it very clear to my instructors that I was there to learn everything I could. I pushed THEM. I studied everything in the book. I also read everything I could from every other source I could find. Then I used that information as my basis for asking them questions. I wasn't satisfied with just getting the cards...I demanded the knowledge to back up the privilege of carrying those cards.

When I let my instructors know that I was there to maximize my training, they were eager to meet my challenge. Being a good student is every bit as important as having a good instructor. If you expect to be spoon-fed, you will get a spoonful. Grabbing the spoon with your own hands is when the feasting begins.

Mountain Dog

Finally, someone who gets it! Thank you Mountain Dog, my faith in mankind has been restored.

 

[Mountain Dog]

Improvement in the standards may well be needed. I can't really speak to that since my own experience with training was indeed a very good one. But I do believe that my experience was good because I made it happen by being a good student.

Could I have gotten my C-cards with less effort than I put into it? Sure. But who do I hurt most by doing that? Myself. My main point is that personal responsibility must play a large role here. Just as we can't lay it all at the instructor's feet, we also can't lay it all at the the door of the certifying agencies. We need to recognize that it is a personal responsibility to continue our own education through formal training as well as contact with more the experienced among us. Oh, and practice, practice, practice.

Mountain Dog

 

[aowdan]

my AOW class was 4 months long. 20+ dives. obviously not your run of the mill class. it's a college class and i learn from the best instructors in the world "IMHO"

 

[Thalassamania]

I am really puzzled by all this criticism of the certifying agencies when it comes to discussing diver skills. What ever happened to personal responsibility? I didn't expect PADI to make me a great diver. I expected PADI to have developed a training program which I could use to make MYSELF a good diver.

Perhaps that's because you've not been around long enough to anaylze what the agencies demand, prohibit, encourage and discourage.

When I took my OW and AOW courses I made it very clear to my instructors that I was there to learn everything I could. I pushed THEM. I studied everything in the book. I also read everything I could from every other source I could find. Then I used that information as my basis for asking them questions. I wasn't satisfied with just getting the cards...I demanded the knowledge to back up the privilege of carrying those cards.

You were luck to have instructors who could respond effectively to that pressure, in my expereince most can not.

When I let my instructors know that I was there to maximize my training, they were eager to meet my challenge. Being a good student is every bit as important as having a good instructor. If you expect to be spoon-fed, you will get a spoonful. Grabbing the spoon with your own hands is when the feasting begins.

A student like you is a gem, most are too worried about how much time it might take out of their schedule.

Agencies claim that their instructor teach you all you need to know to dive safely (there's no such thing). Some agencies prohibit adding, subtracting, subsitutiting or switching skills. Some agencies discourage providing more than 20 hours of training, and yet demand that students "master" skills. It's a bad joke.

 

[Mountain Dog]

Thalassamania,

With all due respect, you obviously have a depth of diving experience that most of us will never know, so I'm not going to disagree with your assessments of what the agencies fail to teach new divers.

If you read one of my earlier posts, you saw that I compared scuba training to motorcycle training - an area where my experience level is comparable with yours as a diver. I said that not one single training course has ever turned out a proficient motorcyclist. All they can do is provide a basic foundation for a new rider to BEGIN their career on two wheels. It is incumbent upon that rider to gradually improve skills through continuing to seek knowledge and practice, practice, practice within the scope of their current knowledge and skill set.

The point I am trying to make is that it is the diver's personal responsibility to understand that he/she is embarking on a life long process of learning to be a good diver. Achieving certification is merely the beginning of education. This point was made very clear to me by my instructors.

You and others on SB have the experience and knowledge to know what's missing from the certification courses. PerroneFord said yesterday that ambuguity in the certification standards needs to be corrected. I'm sure he's got a valid point. But, rather than using the Board to just complain about this issue, why not take up the banner and go directly to the agencies and make it happen. It doesn't take an angry mob beating down the gates to affect change. It takes individuals with strong convictions. History books are filled with the names of those who stand up.

Mountain Dog

 

[PerroneFord]

PerroneFord said yesterday that ambuguity in the certification standards needs to be corrected. I'm sure he's got a valid point. But, rather than using the Board to just complain about this issue, why not take up the banner and go directly to the agencies and make it happen. It doesn't take an angry mob beating down the gates to affect change. It takes individuals with strong convictions. History books are filled with the names of those who stand up.

Mountain Dog

What makes you think I haven't? Thalassamania knows my instructor very well and knows his convictions as well. He also happens to be a course director for a large agency, and we have both tried to make comments and suggestions to this effect.

 

[Mountain Dog]

we have both tried to make comments and suggestions to this effect.

That's good. Keep doing it. Please understand that I'm not saying you're wrong. On the contrary, I strongly support constructive efforts to improve training.

Even though I do feel as though I have gotten very good instruction, I understand what you are saying. During my AOW instruction there was another group of out of town student divers on the boat. Their instructor clearly cared more about satisfying his ego than training his students. His claim to fame was that he certifies more students than anyone else in his region. Sadly, it showed in their skills.

I'm just trying to make the point that we can't blame the agencies for everything. Each and every diver needs to assume the lead roll in their own education. That education doesn't end with a C-card. It BEGINS with a C-card.

Mountain Dog

 

[grayeagle]

barracuda2, i think that say's it all. experience = skills. we all started just about the sameplace. for some it may have came easy and others practice, practice, practice.

 

[Thalassamania]

With all due respect, you obviously have a depth of diving experience that most of us will never know, so I'm not going to disagree with your assessments of what the agencies fail to teach new divers.

Ah … common ground.

If you read one of my earlier posts, you saw that I compared scuba training to motorcycle training - an area where my experience level is comparable with yours as a diver. I said that not one single training course has ever turned out a proficient motorcyclist. All they can do is provide a basic foundation for a new rider to BEGIN their career on two wheels. It is incumbent upon that rider to gradually improve skills through continuing to seek knowledge and practice, practice, practice within the scope of their current knowledge and skill set.

I’ve never thought about teaching riding, I used to race bikes (and can still be coaxed into it on a rare day, I have a 1972 Dunstall Norton). Motorcycle racing relies heavily on reflexes and good operatant conditioning rather than the slow methodical application of a knowledge base to the problem at hand, which is how I’d describe diving. Yes, there are some items where a quick, properly trained response helps, but it is the time frame of tens of seconds rather than fractions of a second.

The point I am trying to make is that it is the diver's personal responsibility to understand that he/she is embarking on a life long process of learning to be a good diver. Achieving certification is merely the beginning of education. This point was made very clear to me by my instructors.

You’re right here, I learn something on every dive and I’ve always gone way out of my way to work with those whose knowledge and skill I’ll never approach. What we’re really differing in is how much (and to some degree what specifically) needs be mastered by a student to assure a full transformation from a diving candidate to a diver.

You and others on SB have the experience and knowledge to know what's missing from the certification courses. PerroneFord said yesterday that ambiguity in the certification standards needs to be corrected. I'm sure he's got a valid point. But, rather than using the Board to just complain about this issue, why not take up the banner and go directly to the agencies and make it happen. It doesn't take an angry mob beating down the gates to affect change. It takes individuals with strong convictions. History books are filled with the names of those who stand up.

I’ve fought that fight and lost; a plague on all their houses. There are many reasons for that loss, but first and foremost is, frankly, human greed.

What makes you think I haven't? Thalassamania knows my instructor very well and knows his convictions as well. He also happens to be a course director for a large agency, and we have both tried to make comments and suggestions to this effect.

PerroneFord’s Instructor and I share similar convictions and for similar reasons have chosen to do what we think is right and we enjoy when it comes to diver training rather than dance with the convocation of *****s that now run recreational diving with no thought to anything but their own gain. Face it, when you lie down with dogs you get up with fleas.

… we have both tried to make comments and suggestions to this effect.

That's good. Keep doing it. Please understand that I'm not saying you're wrong. On the contrary, I strongly support constructive efforts to improve training.

I will continue to make comments and suggestions, but frankly I expect it to do little or not good. What is useful is getting thoughtful individuals, like you, to realize that the emperor’s buck neck’d.

Even though I do feel as though I have gotten very good instruction, I understand what you are saying. During my AOW instruction there was another group of out of town student divers on the boat. Their instructor clearly cared more about satisfying his ego than training his students. His claim to fame was that he certifies more students than anyone else in his region. Sadly, it showed in their skills.

It sounds like you got good training and were able to supplement it effectively yourself.

I'm just trying to make the point that we can't blame the agencies for everything. Each and every diver needs to assume the lead roll in their own education. That education doesn't end with a C-card. It BEGINS with a C-card.

It was the agencies that were taken over by the manufacturers (in the case of PADI) and the diveshops (in the case of NAUI via the PDCs) and then reduced their standards, all the other smaller members of the alphabet soup were either already in the marketers camp or could not market a complete program to a public that was (is) not conversant with the issues.

Big question is: ... assess the learners prior to labeling them as terrible?

Checkout Dive

 

[PerroneFord]

Great story. Sounds like what I do with coaching my teams the first week. Basic stuff, that lets me see what I have to work with.

Thalassamania, you'll appreciate the fact that when I said I wanted to do "technical diving" our mutual friend put me in the water with the instruction, "Pick up those nuts off the bottom of the pool." And he tossed me a pool net. He learned a lot and so did I! LOL!