Bad Dive Master

[RonFrank]

My main point is that many if not most divers who become DM's aren't really interested in diving but are interested in teaching or in collecting cards. If you are really into diving why would you want to be a DM? You will spend nights in a pool and most weekends in 30 feet of water checking OW students out. You will not have time to dive. Most DM's I have met silt up the environment that they are in, have lights hanging and dragging all over the place, don't know many local dive sites unless it is a checkout site or unless they are following someone else.

Many are impressed with themselves only because they feel they are experienced but only in comparison to those they hang out with (as yet uncertified OW students).

Go on any boat dive (outside warm water vacation spots) and the worst divers on the boat will be those that are also DM's.

Hmm, most DM's I've dove with were very good divers. I don't think you can paint with such a wide brush. I've seem more good DM's then bad.

DM is also a very broad term. A guy working in Coz as a DM (they are generally instructors) will have 1000's of dives, and will be exactly the guy you want leading your dives. They sip air, dive like fish, and know the sites like their backyard. I've found the same to holds true in FL at least on the boats on the east coast N. of the Keys where drift diving is the norm so you actually have a DM lead the dive.

 

[fishb0y]

So, you think taking a new diver with less than 60 minutes TOTAL bottom time in 4 dives to 100 ft or lower is wise? You think a brand new diver with 4 dives, and less than 1 hour in bottom time, has mastered thier buoyancy enough to go deep? Really?

But you think its OK to let them run off on there own to dive? How wise is that?

The deep dive is usually the 4th dive in AOW. I have had people hold off during an AOW class before they did the 2nd days dives. Are you just jealous that a person has the sense to continue their diving with an instructor? Think about it...

Would you feel better if AOW was re-named to Open Water 2 (I believe that's what the YMCA calls it).

As I said earlier, stop being a part of the "Scuba Elite".

 

[pilot fish]

I don't know what you mean by "running off on their own"? Dive on their own after OW? Sure, because you are supposed to be able to do that. There should be some period, number of dives, between OW and AOW and AOW and Rescue Diver etc. Why not perfect the one skill, OW, before you go for additional certs?

I am far from the "Scuba Elite," I can assure you, but I am for more practice before you aquire a wallet filled with cert cards and very little real ocean experience. It just seems to defy common sense to just aquire cert cards with no real ocean dive experience.

But you think its OK to let them run off on there own to dive? How wise is that?

The deep dive is usually the 4th dive in AOW. I have had people hold off during an AOW class before they did the 2nd days dives. Are you just jealous that a person has the sense to continue their diving with an instructor? Think about it...

Would you feel better if AOW was re-named to Open Water 2 (I believe that's what the YMCA calls it).

As I said earlier, stop being a part of the "Scuba Elite".

 

[isurus]

It just seems to defy common sense to just aquire cert cards with no real ocean dive experience.

Ah but they are gaining real ocean dive experience..with the benefit of a skilled (in theory) instructor on hand.

 

[RonFrank]

I apologized to the Coast Guard...doesn't anybody care?

I care very deeply!

But some of the things you mention are valid concrens. No O2? I bet no Defibulators? IMO those two things should be mandatory on ANY rescue craft, and they can leave the asprin at home.

 

[fishb0y]

It just seems to defy common sense to just aquire cert cards with no real ocean dive experience.

Then how pray-tell do they gain experience. How many new divers have you taken under your wing? BTW, I don't care if you give me a number or not, that's not the point. You have new divers who want to learn, and who would be the best person for them? Most likely their instructor.

Sorry, I don't know very many active instructors who have the time/need to take out their former students to make sure they are diving. The the perfect world that would be great, but it isn't a perfect world, and people need to take it on themselves to enhance their diving skills.

Just for you PF, from this point on I will no longer call it Advanced Open Water, but Open Water II. Hopefully this will protect your ego from these upstart new divers.

 

[Cacia]

thanks, Ron. I feel bad that I said "we make fun of the Coast Guard" Truth is, we make fun of everybody the entire time we are on the boat. I board at my own risk every time!

 

[RonFrank]

So, you think taking a new diver with less than 60 minutes TOTAL bottom time in 4 dives to 100 ft or lower is wise? You think a brand new diver with 4 dives, and less than 1 hour in bottom time, has mastered thier buoyancy enough to go deep? Really?

So which is more dangerous. A new diver with less than 60 minutes of BT diving on their own to 100 feet, or a new diver with the same qualifications diving to 100feet with a DM and instructor on hand?

Given those two scenerios if there is a problem, in which case does the diver have a better chance of survival?

Training and experience are two different things. However who is going to learn faster, they guy with no training trying to gain experience, or the guy who has been trained, and understands what he is attempting to achieve (read GOALS, Knowledge) that is working to gain experience?

In most everything in life people who take training first are going to learn faster than people who try to just learn it on their own. There are certainly exceptions, IMO diving is not one of them.

You can't have it both ways. You can not blame the diving industry for lack of quality training, and in the same breath state that divers should not seek further training until they have experience. You just stated they are undertrained, correct? So what is the solution? Would that not be more training and diving under supervision to correct their lack of quality training and experience, yes?

IMO, I'd rather dive with a diver with 50 dives and rescue training vs. one with 100 dives and nothing beyond OW. I may kill him in panic mode as he is NOT equiped with any knowledge to know what to do in a Rescue situation.

 

[Cacia]

You can't have it both ways. You can not blame the diving industry for lack of quality training, and in the same breath state that divers should not seek further training until they have experience.

good point.

 

[pilot fish]

You can't have it both ways. You can not blame the diving industry for lack of quality training, and in the same breath state that divers should not seek further training until they have experience. You just stated they are undertrained, correct? So what is the solution? Would that not be more training and diving under supervision to correct their lack of quality training and experience, yes?]]]]Ron Frank

You misunderstand me, Ron. I'm saying perfect one cert skill before attempting additional certs. Would you think it wise for a new diver to take a navigation course while still having buoynacy problems they did not master in basic OW? A wallet filled with cert cards is not the equivilent to dive experience.

While I am not blaming the cert agenncies for bad training, I am questioning the wisdom of letting a brand new diver get a bunch of cert cards while not requiring that diver to get real dive experience.