bad day on charter

[Ayisha]

Even if the second stage was free flowing and they were at 100fsw it would take more time than that to drain the tank from 800psi.

I learned that's not true recently when my insta-buddy had a massive freeflow near the beginning of the dive shortly after we reached 110 feet. He showed me that his octo was bubbling slightly, and then he continued leading us around the wreck. Within ten seconds or so, his octo was freeflowing fully and he made eye contact with me and I started grabbing my octo for him to use. I had around 2300 psi in my AL 63. My intention was to get him on my octo and turn off his (AL 80) tank, start ascending and then turn his tank back on and see if it thawed. Instead, he automatically booted it for the ascent line and ascended rapidly all the way to and up the line. I went after him quickly at first to try and catch him, but he was flying. I wondered if the tech divers that we had seen on the line were still doing their deco. I went up the line a little faster than normal but not excessively and eventually saw the outline of him and the tech divers and his freeflow. Then the freeflow stopped and I was under the throng of divers at the safety stop and they were assisting him. I saw him using a pony the other divers had sent down for him. I re-joined him and we finished the safety stop.

With his full freeflow at around 100 - 110 feet in cold water near the beginning of the dive, even with his quick ascent, he ran out of air as soon as he reached the safety stop. It totally surprised me how fast his tank drained and it was an eye-opener. I normally carry my 19 cf pony on cold deep dives but I didn't take it that day. I also normally don't do deep, low viz dives with strangers but he needed a buddy, so my 2 friends and I split up and I buddied with the stranger on the boat. He didn't really speak English and we tried to communicate the bar vs psi differences of our equipment and some basic signals as well as arguing about what our ascent pressure would be in bar and psi and him coming to a compromise of a higher rock bottom. My friends and I have a plan for freeflows, both with and without a pony, and I erroneously assumed he would at least try to get assistance from me.

I was shocked at how fast the tank drained and that he couldn't even make it to 15 fsw with any air in his tank. I can't imagine if this was any later in the dive. I now see even more value in the pony that I carry increasingly more often each year. I will now make sure that I have it for all deep cold dives and that a freeflow plan and everything else has been discussed beforehand. Air can drain in your or your buddy's tank way faster than one might think and different buddies can react very differently.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

On sunday i took a local boat charter. It was a 65 foot dive on a civil war era wreck. We were using line reels and for the most part solo diving. About 45 min. into the dive i ran into another diver who swignaled me he was low on air. he had 800 pounds and had lost his reel. he started to follow my line back when 30 seconds later he ran out of air. i had 1400 pounds in my hp 120. We started to buddy breath and started to accend away from the anchor line. He was so panicked and breathing so hard that i had to take over his bc controls and guide our accent. At 30 feet my cobra 2 started to read 0psi i had to omit a safty stop and bring him directly to the surface. Once we were safely back aboard the boat i looked at his computer. His total dive time was only 15 min. He was using an alm 80 I am an experanced diver and have had the philosipy that my 120 was enough air to get me and a buddy safely to the surface. This incident has taught me differant. i will be carrying a pony from now on. This is a pproblem with charters. You never truely know the abulity of the other divers on the boat. If i never have this happen to me again it will be too soon!!

Jason

Your story does not seem to match reality. You indicate that you began sharing air at 1400 psi in a HP 120 and ran out of air making a direct ascent from 65 feet.

The data you posted from the computer do not support this story. you were well below 1400 psi when the consumption spiked and presumably the sharing started. Also, the ascent rate was unreasonably slow for an emergency. In fact it looks like you delayed the initiation of the ascent for some time and then came up way too SLOOOW. Proof that you came up too slow is the fact that you ran out of air on ascent.

I mayself had a panicked buddy at 80 feet grab the regulator from my mouth and he breathed an incredible amount of air on the ascent.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

I learned that's not true recently when my insta-buddy had a massive freeflow near the beginning of the dive shortly after we reached 110 feet. He showed me that his octo was bubbling slightly, and then he continued leading us around the wreck. Within ten seconds or so, his octo was freeflowing fully and he made eye contact with me and I started grabbing my octo for him to use. I had around 2300 psi in my AL 63. My intention was to get him on my octo and turn off his (AL 80) tank, start ascending and then turn his tank back on and see if it thawed. Instead, he automatically booted it for the ascent line and ascended rapidly all the way to and up the line. I went after him quickly at first to try and catch him, but he was flying. I wondered if the tech divers that we had seen on the line were still doing their deco. I went up the line a little faster than normal but not excessively and eventually saw the outline of him and the tech divers and his freeflow. Then the freeflow stopped and I was under the throng of divers at the safety stop and they were assisting him. I saw him using a pony the other divers had sent down for him. I re-joined him and we finished the safety stop.

With his full freeflow at around 100 - 110 feet in cold water near the beginning of the dive, even with his quick ascent, he ran out of air as soon as he reached the safety stop. It totally surprised me how fast his tank drained and it was an eye-opener. I normally carry my 19 cf pony on cold deep dives but I didn't take it that day. I also normally don't do deep, low viz dives with strangers but he needed a buddy, so my 2 friends and I split up and I buddied with the stranger on the boat. He didn't really speak English and we tried to communicate the bar vs psi differences of our equipment and some basic signals as well as arguing about what our ascent pressure would be in bar and psi and him coming to a compromise of a higher rock bottom. My friends and I have a plan for freeflows, both with and without a pony, and I erroneously assumed he would at least try to get assistance from me.

I was shocked at how fast the tank drained and that he couldn't even make it to 15 fsw with any air in his tank. I can't imagine if this was any later in the dive. I now see even more value in the pony that I carry increasingly more often each year. I will now make sure that I have it for all deep cold dives and that a freeflow plan and everything else has been discussed beforehand. Air can drain in your or your buddy's tank way faster than one might think and different buddies can react very differently.

I agree, way too many people think that they don't need a pony because they will always carfully watch their air supply, but scuba failures can and do occur and carrying a pony bottle on all dives below 60 feet (regardless of temperature) make me feel a lot safer.

Also, the idea of shutting down a stranger's life support equipment (and eliminating their ability to inflate the bc) with the intent of preserving their air is a decision which needs to be carefully considered. What if you shut their air off, and they get away from you, either sink or explosively float away (say due to ditched lead or over inflated BC?). Also what if you shut their air off, they panic, knock your weight belt off, you mask off and then you float away and they sink to their death, all because you lost a grip on them? Unless the diver is very calm and controlled (and or has his own redundant air supply), I think shutting down someone's tank at depth in an emergency (iin order to save air on a recreational dive) is unnecessarily risky.
A

 

[DandyDon]

I normally carry my 19 cf pony on cold deep dives but I didn't take it that day.

Why not?! I know that not everyone has & dives them, but if you do have and often do - seems odd that you skipped it? Just curious; I hope I do not sound critical?

Why do you have a 19 anyway? Since you seem to be one of those minimum users who dives a 63 on deep dives where I want a 100, 120 if I can get it - I'd think you'd carry a smaller pony.

They are a bother I know. Tank vized and reg serviced annually, packing under airline limits, etc, and a bother to dive. Once I dived the top of a Cozumel wall on a planned shallow second dive only to get pulled down in a current, me wondering WTH I'm doing at 100 ft with my pony on the boat. I've carried it more even on shallow plans since.

I also normally don't do deep, low viz dives with strangers but he needed a buddy, so my 2 friends and I split up and I buddied with the stranger on the boat. He didn't really speak English and we tried to communicate the bar vs psi differences of our equipment and some basic signals as well as arguing about what our ascent pressure would be in bar and psi and him coming to a compromise of a higher rock bottom.

An experience similar to that prompted me to get my pony. He had rental gear in PSI and a computer he didn't understand, weak English, and such. Some divers really should hire private DMs.

 

[mstudley]

I still cannot comprehend how it's possible to blow through 800 psi in 30 seconds at 65 feet from an AL80.

It's not.

 

[Ayisha]

Why not?! I know that not everyone has & dives them, but if you do have and often do - seems odd that you skipped it? Just curious; I hope I do not sound critical?

I didn't worry about my pony that day because I knew the bottom temp (in Kingston) had warmed up to 60 F, which is positively balmy around here and the chance of free(ze)flowing is much lower. If it had been early in the season and it was still under 45 F, I would have taken the pony. I used to originally only carry the pony for 130 foot dives to 38 or 39 F in very challenging, low viz conditions, but I increasingly felt "naked" without it, so each year my threshold seems to have lowered to use the pony. I still haven't carried it for dives under 80 feet or over 50 F, but I just might...

However, the cause of my buddy's freeflow was a broken o-ring, not a frozen reg, and the pony would have still been a good thing to have.

Yes, I am very good on gas and normally end my dives with about 1500 - 1200 psi in my AL 63, diving a little under the NDL's. I carry a 19 cf because it is virtually unnoticeable u/w and extremely light on land. Together with my rig, it is the max I can carry, and just barely. It is more than enough air for me, but I want to be able to do my usual very slow ascent, deep stop, graduated ascent and extended safety stop in the event that I do ever use it. I also recognize that my smaller tank could be drained quickly by a heavy breather, and I always leave a big reserve accordingly - but my normal buddies are other females that have low air consumption. I have used HP steel 80's for some of the more challenging conditions just in case for my buddy.

 

[mstudley]

I learned that's not true recently when my insta-buddy had a massive freeflow near the beginning of the dive shortly after we reached 110 feet. He showed me that his octo was bubbling slightly, and then he continued leading us around the wreck. Within ten seconds or so, his octo was freeflowing fully and he made eye contact with me and I started grabbing my octo for him to use. I had around 2300 psi in my AL 63. My intention was to get him on my octo and turn off his (AL 80) tank, start ascending and then turn his tank back on and see if it thawed. Instead, he automatically booted it for the ascent line and ascended rapidly all the way to and up the line. I went after him quickly at first to try and catch him, but he was flying. I wondered if the tech divers that we had seen on the line were still doing their deco. I went up the line a little faster than normal but not excessively and eventually saw the outline of him and the tech divers and his freeflow. Then the freeflow stopped and I was under the throng of divers at the safety stop and they were assisting him. I saw him using a pony the other divers had sent down for him. I re-joined him and we finished the safety stop.

With his full freeflow at around 100 - 110 feet in cold water near the beginning of the dive, even with his quick ascent, he ran out of air as soon as he reached the safety stop. It totally surprised me how fast his tank drained and it was an eye-opener. I normally carry my 19 cf pony on cold deep dives but I didn't take it that day. I also normally don't do deep, low viz dives with strangers but he needed a buddy, so my 2 friends and I split up and I buddied with the stranger on the boat. He didn't really speak English and we tried to communicate the bar vs psi differences of our equipment and some basic signals as well as arguing about what our ascent pressure would be in bar and psi and him coming to a compromise of a higher rock bottom. My friends and I have a plan for freeflows, both with and without a pony, and I erroneously assumed he would at least try to get assistance from me.

I was shocked at how fast the tank drained and that he couldn't even make it to 15 fsw with any air in his tank. I can't imagine if this was any later in the dive. I now see even more value in the pony that I carry increasingly more often each year. I will now make sure that I have it for all deep cold dives and that a freeflow plan and everything else has been discussed beforehand. Air can drain in your or your buddy's tank way faster than one might think and different buddies can react very differently.

Look at the link I posted. It would be fast but definitely not as fast as the OP claims especially under the given conditions.

 

[Ayisha]

...Also, the idea of shutting down a stranger's life support equipment (and eliminating their ability to inflate the bc) with the intent of preserving their air is a decision which needs to be carefully considered. What if you shut their air off, and they get away from you, either sink or explosively float away (say due to ditched lead or over inflated BC?). Also what if you shut their air off, they panic, knock your weight belt off, you mask off and then you float away and they sink to their death, all because you lost a grip on them? Unless the diver is very calm and controlled (and or has his own redundant air supply), I think shutting down someone's tank at depth in an emergency (iin order to save air on a recreational dive) is unnecessarily risky.
A

Agreed. That was my intended plan because that is the plan with my normal buddies, who I basically do all my local dives with. I would have waited until he was calm and in control and I would have asked (signalled) first before turning off anything of his and would have kept a good grip on him. You're right though. He was almost twice my size and any of that could have happened very easily and I couldn't know his reaction to stress in advance. He couldn't get to the surface fast enough, however, and didn't give me a chance to try to help him, even though I had told him that I always leave plenty of air as a reserve.

 

[DandyDon]

Thanks for explaining your approaches. Some of this will vary between divers by what conditions we are used to diving, and other factors of course.

I didn't worry about my pony that day because I knew the bottom temp (in Kingston) had warmed up to 60 F, which is positively balmy around here and the chance of free(ze)flowing is much lower. If it had been early in the season and it was still under 45 F, I would have taken the pony. I used to originally only carry the pony for 130 foot dives to 38 or 39 F in very challenging, low viz conditions, but I increasingly felt "naked" without it, so each year my threshold seems to have lowered to use the pony. I still haven't carried it for dives under 80 feet or over 50 F, but I just might...

I like to have my pony for any dive I don't feel comfortable doing a CESA from, anything below 50 ft - but that's me. I just like to be self sufficient.

However, the cause of my buddy's freeflow was a broken o-ring, not a frozen reg, and the pony would have still been a good thing to have.

And I like to be able to help others in need.

Yes, I am very good on gas and normally end my dives with about 1500 - 1200 psi in my AL 63, diving a little under the NDL's. I carry a 19 cf because it is virtually unnoticeable u/w and extremely light on land.

You must be in much better shape than I, not that that is saying much, but I just don't see a 19 as extremely light on land. But ok, more gas than expected to use is always good.

 

[darisel8@yahoo.com]

On sunday i took a local boat charter. It was a 65 foot dive on a civil war era wreck. We were using line reels and for the most part solo diving. About 45 min. into the dive i ran into another diver who swignaled me he was low on air. he had 800 pounds and had lost his reel. he started to follow my line back when 30 seconds later he ran out of air. i had 1400 pounds in my hp 120. We started to buddy breath and started to accend away from the anchor line. He was so panicked and breathing so hard that i had to take over his bc controls and guide our accent. At 30 feet my cobra 2 started to read 0psi i had to omit a safty stop and bring him directly to the surface. Once we were safely back aboard the boat i looked at his computer. His total dive time was only 15 min. He was using an alm 80 I am an experanced diver and have had the philosipy that my 120 was enough air to get me and a buddy safely to the surface. This incident has taught me differant. i will be carrying a pony from now on. This is a pproblem with charters. You never truely know the abulity of the other divers on the boat. If i never have this happen to me again it will be too soon!!

Jason

By the way "YOU DID A GREAT JOB IN SAVING HIS LIFE"! That's a good sign!
Darrell