Back Roll Entry Head Injury

[ktomlinson]

The DM is already in the water. When the skipper says "Go," I go - unless there is a problem.

I've been to Cozumel and plenty of other places, from my experience it isn't the norm for a DM to be in the water before the divers. It's the DMs job not the captain's to help divers into the water. It's the captains job to drive the boat.

 

[boulderjohn]

The way i like to do it. the boat is moving. the capt asks the divers if they are ready. Then a few moments later he should ask if anyone is not ready. Everyone needs to have mask on and everything ready.

Then the capt pulls to the drop location, puts the engine(s) in neutral and says dive, dive dive. The boat is still moving slowly forward.

I gave a clear description. The captain says dive dive dive, when it is ok for the first diver to enter the water.

The captain says when to dive and each diver goes, after the diver has rolled who is aft of them. Pretty simple.. Relying on other recreational divers who are strangers for your safety is something I (try to) avoid.

You mean we must do a "a trust me dive" off the boat????

I seem to see a recurring theme on Scubaboard that once we get in the water... we must NEVER, EVER do a trust me dive. You can never cede responsibility for your safety on a dive to a boat operator or divemaster etc. If you are uncomfortable with anything a DM asks you to do when diving, then it is your responsibility to do only the things you are trained for and comfortable with. Isn't that the advice I always hear here..

But a back roll... something that could literally cause you to break your neck in an instant.. We just have to trust people to formulate a variety of systems and protocols that will vary with location, objective, composition of the customers?

So you are saying you much prefer a system in which the captain tells each diver when to do the back roll, and you hate a system in which the captain tells each diver when to do the back roll? Is that right? I am getting a little confused.

---------- Post added June 17th, 2014 at 08:01 PM ----------

I've been to Cozumel and plenty of other places, from my experience it isn't the norm for a DM to be in the water before the divers. It's the DMs job not the captain's to help divers into the water. It's the captains job to drive the boat.

Everything depends upon the situation. I have seen the DM go into the water first in Cozumel many times, often because the current is hard to predict and it needs to be checked out. Other times, it is not necessary.

 

[Ayisha]

It's the DMs job not the captain's to help divers into the water. It's the captains job to drive the boat.

Not necessarily. On small charter boats around here in Ontario with 4 - 8 or even 12 divers, there's no first mate or DM and it's the captain observing and helping everyone off and back on - yes, including holding valves if necessary.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

So you are saying you much prefer a system in which the captain tells each diver when to do the back roll, and you hate a system in which the captain tells each diver when to do the back roll? Is that right? I am getting a little confused.

---------- Post added June 17th, 2014 at 08:01 PM ----------



Everything depends upon the situation. I have seen the DM go into the water first in Cozumel many times, often because the current is hard to predict and it needs to be checked out. Other times, it is not necessary.

I describe a system that I know to be nearly foolproof.

You indicate you are ignorant of it and have never seen it.

I ask if you have any better system.

In response you make vague references to varying conditions, objectives etc. and then explain that this requires different methods, each of which is presumably OK because a captain says so. However you fail to describe the specific system, other than follow whatever the captain says to do. You actually indicate that we simply need to trust these other people for our safety.

With the extremely simplistic system i describe, the capt dictates WHEN the entry procedure is allowed to commence, then it is up to each diver to follow through. Each diver can determine for themselves whether it is safe to enter the water or not. Are you still confused?

 

[crabbyfiddler]

Glad at least one person understood me! Yes, it is the cover strut support I hold onto. There are a couple of them spaced about 4 feet apart along the side of the boat I dive from. I'm 5'3" about half of which is leg. Arms in proportion.

I understood you Marg, because I dive from the same boat. Last December I used a 120...the weight of that sucker pulled me a full 360 on my first entry. I had to lengthen myself a bit on the rolls after that.

For the other poster, it is 1, 2, 3 splash

 

[Edward3c]

The general disagreement when I mentioned that the fault fell with the falling diver baffled me. Compare to traffic law. If you pull up to a stop sign and a passenger tells you that the road is clear, who's fault do you think it is when you pull out in front of another car? Do you think it matters if you are short? Or the configuration of the car is different than the one you are accustomed to? Nope, doesn't matter. It doesn't matter on a boat when doing a back roll either. It is your responsibility to verify that the area behind you is clear. If you have challenges doing that, that is sometimes understandable, but it's still your responsibility. New divers read this board, and it is important they know this.

I've driven vehicles where I was totally reliant of someone else telling me it was clear at junctions. When driving I had about a 25 deg. field of view, so the person sitting topside had to hold a licence for the vehicle and would end up in the dock if we hit anything. With all the amour we wouldn't feel a car.

 

[seashell]

This thread was a good reminder for me. I want to thank the OP for sharing with us.

I've been diving on many different boats and a few different styles of boats. The DM is not always first in the water. Sometimes there is no dm. The majority of my dives have been done from boats where the divers get seated one at a time at the back of the boat on the gunwale, one diver each side. Captain or mate assists diver on one side, dm asists on the other. Once all divers are in the water dm bails. Many of the divers are still getting sorted and dm is already geared up in water and helping them. From time to time though rarely, the I'm told to hold because someone hasn't kicked out from the boat or another significant reason. From time to time I don't roll myself even if told to because I spy peripherally that someone isn't clear enough to my satisfaction or I'm not happy with my gear placement.

 

[boulderjohn]

I describe a system that I know to be nearly foolproof.

You indicate you are ignorant of it and have never seen it.

I ask if you have any better system.

In response you make vague references to varying conditions, objectives etc. and then explain that this requires different methods, each of which is presumably OK because a captain says so. However you fail to describe the specific system, other than follow whatever the captain says to do. You actually indicate that we simply need to trust these other people for our safety.

With the extremely simplistic system i describe, the capt dictates WHEN the entry procedure is allowed to commence, then it is up to each diver to follow through. Each diver can determine for themselves whether it is safe to enter the water or not. Are you still confused?

As I said earlier, the system used depends upon a number of factors. One of them is the purpose of the dive. Your post indicates you are spearfishing. In that case, it is important to separate the divers. I am sure it works fine.

In other cases--such as Cozumel--it is essential that the divers stay together. They will be diving as a group, which does not happen in spear fishing. Surface currents would mean that divers separating by too much on entry would have an extremely difficult time getting back together again. When I dived in the Galapagos, that was even more important because of more limited visibility, so we all backrolled at once with no air in the BCDs so that we could head straight down together.

So, yes, I do what the captain says. Are you saying that if you were in Cozumel or the Galapagos and did not like the method the captain calls for, you would ignore him and do whatever you want?

 

[dumpsterDiver]

As I said earlier, the system used depends upon a number of factors. One of them is the purpose of the dive. Your post indicates you are spearfishing. In that case, it is important to separate the divers. I am sure it works fine.

In other cases--such as Cozumel--it is essential that the divers stay together. They will be diving as a group, which does not happen in spear fishing. Surface currents would mean that divers separating by too much on entry would have an extremely difficult time getting back together again. When I dived in the Galapagos, that was even more important because of more limited visibility, so we all backrolled at once with no air in the BCDs so that we could head straight down together.

So, yes, I do what the captain says. Are you saying that if you were in Cozumel or the Galapagos and did not like the method the captain calls for, you would ignore him and do whatever you want?[/QUOTE]

The method I described has nothing to do with spearfishing! I dive with my son all the time doing back rolls, again it has nothing to do with solo versus buddy diving. You seem to be somewhat ignorant about spearfishing as well. It is often done in pairs or even in a 3-man team.

And if a captain or crew told me to do something I considered stupid or dangerously stupid, I would NOT do it. I have seen many accidents, many stupid captains and way too many deaths while diving.

I once fell on top of a guy (while i was climbing a ladder). He had position himself too close under me while I was in a weakened state after a wetsuit dive in 45 degree water in New Jersey. I slipped/fell off the ladder in 4-6 ft seas - I still remember it well, I thought I might have killed Bill with that accident.

I felt terrible, the tank missed his head and slammed into his tank. It happened about 38 years ago. Even though it was HIS FAULT (for getting under a diver who is climbing a ladder)- I still remember how scared and bad (and guilty) I felt as I came crashing down on top of him. It was one of the more important dive accidents for me to be involved in. It left a very strong impression that there are good reasons for some simple protocols and that failure to follow them can kill people.

What seems to be missing from this discussion is that it doesn't matter who is "technically responsible". When someone gets killed or hurt, I feel bad. I try to implement procedures that reduce the chance of that happening.

So if a captain directed me to follow a protocol that I knew to be unsafe, I would get into the water in a safe manner... they way I want. I want to know for myself that the area below me is safe for me to roll into.

 

[crabbyfiddler]

I've been to Cozumel and plenty of other places, from my experience it isn't the norm for a DM to be in the water before the divers. It's the DMs job not the captain's to help divers into the water. It's the captains job to drive the boat.

It depends on the currents. When there are wonky currents, sometimes the DM will dive first to check out the underwater scene. We have had times when the DM comes back on the boat and changes the point of entry because currents are shifting, etc. In that case, the Capt is the one who gives the order for everyone else to roll, all together. If people follow directions it works great.