Back inflation BCD

[sockeye02]

Wow! There are some very strong emotions regarding BP/W! Reading the threads almost makes this noob diver feel stupid for having just purchased a back inflator BCD.
Personally I bought my Oceanic Islander BCD only because 1. It was on sale (Islander 2 was out), 2. It had integrated weights 3. It wouldn't bust my luggage allowance 4. It was significantly cheaper than a Dive-Rite rig (BP/W, I think) my LDS was suggesting which didn't have integrated weights (I really, really hate the belt) To be fair I never had the chance to decide between back inflate vs jacket as I've never tried a back inflate (no trying here) but my regular dive shop owner suggested its better than a jacket style for underwater control and trim but feels less secure (he knows I'm a noob)
Anyway, to answer the OP's question: I like it! I just took it into the pool for the first time yesterday. It took a while to get the weights and trim right (at one point I was oriented feet up-face up, head down 45deg at neutral bouyancy!) but once I got it dialed in, it was much easier to maintain horizontal trim in the water. I also like the fact that unlike a jacket, it doesn't nip at my armpits or squeeze my chest like a python. Pockets are also easily accessible even when fully inflated
I agree that on the surface if you're used to full inflation in a jacket style, the back inflate will want to push you face forward. To counter this, rear trim pockets are important, as is learning to lead back slightly on your tank at the surface. Your head is definitely not going to come out of the water as much as in a jacket inflation as you'll want to inflate just enough to maintain surface bouyancy. I can see where this might be a disadvantage in heavier seas.
I also like the fact my arms feel a lot free-er than in a jacket as there's no bladder directly below my armpits

 

[helimvee]

Wow! All that from a question about jacket - back inflate. On top of that, it appears that was the OP's first post.

It constantly amazes me how a forum like this will bring out the worst in people. The same people sitting around after a couple of dives having a beer or two would probably not think about acting this way.

It is a forum. Most people come here to read the opinions of other divers and to offer their own opinions based on their experience. These are PERSONAL OPINIONS and it should not be a surprise that you may not agree with the opinion of another poster.

If a poster feels that they have to criticize the opinions of other posters or police the posts to ensure that they answer the OP's question exactly (in their opinion) there is no way to stop them, but it sure makes you question any opinion or advice that they may have offered.

Just my opinion.

 

[DevonDiver]

Wow! There are some very strong emotions regarding BP/W! Reading the threads almost makes this noob diver feel stupid for having just purchased a back inflator BCD.

If you are refering to my posts, then I should clarify... I am not anti-rear inflate BCDs. I just feel that the hybrid design suffers from attempting to fill too different niches.

That said, there are many brands and variants of rear inflate BCDs... and some perform better than others. None, though, offer the full spectrum of benefits offered by the BP/W.

I can fully understand why some divers prefer the rear-inflate style. I think that this is mostly to do with the fact that they originally learn diving in a jacket bcd and subsequently have difficulty divorcing themselves from the concept of being cocooned within a big nylon support.

If someone wants to start a new thread (Rear Inflate vs BP/W), then I would be happy to debate those failings in detail. (note - debate, not argue).

I went to the pool today. I was able to change weight as far as amount and position using the weight pockets and the trim pockets. I spent about and hour messing around with these and getting things figured out as far as trim underwater and how to keep my face out of the water on the surface. It was wonderful. The Zeagle Stiletto was great. I ended up with 3 lbs in each pocket with nothing in the trim pockets.

Can I just ask.... is your weighting placement now optimal for surface support or underwater trim?

 

[dmoore19]

Can I just ask.... is your weighting placement now optimal for surface support or underwater trim?

I think I can say both!

I am actually quite pleased with both. It does feel different on the surface when compared to the jacket style but I am quite pleased with what I have found. I knew it was going to be different than the jacket both under and at surface. I think the fact that I was able keep my head above water without getting squeezed when at the surface was great. I was also able to maintain boyancy and level trim without much effort, it just felt good and I was told it also looked good. I may yet try tweaking with weight in the trim pockets (1 or maybe 2 lb) later just to see if it makes any difference. Otherwise I don't know if it would make me anymore comfortable.

 

[DevonDiver]

Most people come here to read the opinions of other divers and to offer their own opinions based on their experience. These are PERSONAL OPINIONS and it should not be a surprise that you may not agree with the opinion of another poster.

I agree 100%. Everyone is entitled to an opinion...whether on diving, religion...or partical physics.

It is important to note however, the difference between an opinion and a qualified opinion.

Sharing opinions is fine in a debate.
Qualified opinions are needed when providing advice and guidance.

 

[DevonDiver]

I think I can say both!

Wow..then that's a chance in a thousand. To have a weighting set-up that allows good horizontal trim underwater, whilst providing a 'pull-back' weight that counters the pushing effect of the BCD at the surface, is normally counter-demanding.

I can appreciate how you would feel really happy with the effect of having all that air held flat behind you on the dive.... it allows much easier and more intuative buoyancy/trim.

At some point, try adding a metal backplate to the equation (I think some hybrid bcds will allow the plastic backplate to be replaced with a metal one). Then you have the double effect of some weight being spread across your center-of-gravity, along with the pleasing effect of the wing. It's really stable

 

[dmoore19]

Wow..then that's a chance in a thousand. To have a weighting set-up that allows good horizontal trim underwater, whilst providing a 'pull-back' weight that counters the pushing effect of the BCD at the surface, is normally counter-demanding.


Maybe I don't know any better but it sure does feel good to me. I am very pleased. Like I said before, it is different than the jacket, I don't ride as high in the water as the jacket but it does keep my head above water and if I want to come further out I can lean back (arch my back) and that works too.

 

[RAWalker]

I agree 100%. Everyone is entitled to an opinion...whether on diving, religion...or partical physics.

It is important to note however, the difference between an opinion and a qualified opinion.

Sharing opinions is fine in a debate.
Qualified opinions are needed when providing advice and guidance.

And two people can both have qualified opinions while even with differing qualifications but when providing guidance if you don't listen, are not aware of or ignore what is being asked then the best of qualifications isn't going to make your opinion valid for the circumstances.

I find it laughable how all the responses that don't support DevonDiver's opinion become against the odds.
Like the manufacturers did no research and developement.
Seems this soon to be Divemaster's opinion is gaining support by the evident of the feedback. While the instructor is looking more the part of the prima donna.

 

[ScubaRambo]

Devon - would you feel that a back inflated BCD with leg straps and properly trimmed weights placed strategically in the back is still a horrid BC? I just see that the pushing forward of the head on the surface is often fixed almost entirely with a little bit of weight adjustment to the back (much like a BP/W weight) and some leg straps thrown on...
and yes, I realize I am even more so under the guy you were previously arguing with in dive #, I'm just commenting on a weekend long dive trip in which I and others tried on many different types of BC's with our very competent instructor/LDS owner to guide us, show us how we could fix such problems
*flame shield activated*
(plus I do believe I'm much more humble than the last shmuck)

 

[DevonDiver]

Maybe I don't know any better but it sure does feel good to me. I am very pleased.

That's great

I am positive that the rear inflate would offer a noticeable advantage over a conventional jacket design when it comes to trim. As I said though... it still has many of the drawbacks of the jacket design...and lacks many of the advantages of a true BP/W. Why compriomise?

Quick reference:
pre-Madonna: the period before the early-to-mid 1980's when teenage girls still concealed their underwear with clothing.

Yep, that does indeed sound like a certain card-collecting, rescue diver involved in this thread.

Devon - would you feel that a back inflated BCD with leg straps and properly trimmed weights placed strategically in the back is still a horrid BC?

I think it's horrid, because it represents a shallow compromise on what it should be.

I see these (and, yes, this is just my opinion, not fact) as a cheap marketing ploy by some BC manufacturers to leap on the band-wagon.

The design of BCDs hit a cross-roads several years ago...and manufacturers were faced with two choices...

1. Focus on quality, durability, effectiveness, efficiency, function and safety. Simplify designs to provide exactly what was needed. The K.I.S.S. principle. The best BCDs are the ones that do the job best and last longest.

i.e. Halcyon Eclipse or Aquacheq Mach V Signature

2. Focus on gimmicks, novelties and unnecessary gadgets. Complicate designs to appeal to inexperienced divers, who think more is best. The best BCDs are the ones with the most straps, d-rings, pockets, the most complicated mechanisms, fancy harnesses etc

i.e. Mares H.U.B. or Dacor Rig 3

I also think it is horrid that these BCDs will inherently try and drown you at the surface. It is a design fault that should not be allowed to exist by any ethical scuba manufacturer.

Sometimes divers become unresponsive on the surface.... or have to wait hours for pick up by a boat. It does happen...with shocking regularity. In these instances, proper floatation at the surface is the difference between life and death.

So, in short, I think that these BCDs are horrid...because they are a marketing ploy, that compromises safety in return for sales. The prey on the inexperienced.

I just see that the pushing forward of the head on the surface is often fixed almost entirely with a little bit of weight adjustment to the back (much like a BP/W weight) and some leg straps thrown on...

I don't doubt that the inherent bouyancy failings can be overcome - with sufficient customization and experimentation.

However.... shouldn't an ethical manufacturer ensure that it's products do their job, safely, off-the-shelf?

Whilst you have made the necessary adjustments and additions to your BCD to prevent the inherent problem with it..... there are thousands of divers who haven't.

and yes, I realize I am even more so under the guy you were previously arguing with in dive #, I'm just commenting on a weekend long dive trip in which I and others tried on many different types of BC's with our very competent instructor/LDS owner to guide us, show us how we could fix such problems

I am more than happy to debate any issue. I really enjoy being on this forum, because it is nice to help others, pass on my experience...and also learn from those members here who have experience that I do not (and there is always something to learn..and someone who has had experiences that you have yet to have).

My issue with "the other guy" wasn't due to a disagreement of opinion. It was about a rescue diver, with 2 weeks diving experience, who felt sufficiently qualified in his opinion to trash my advice. Contrary to that person's views - I feel that my experiences as a full-time professional instructor, who dives every day/week/month, are worth something. The issue is also based on the fact that I have encountered individuals of his type on many occasions....all of them Divemaster Trainees...and all of them with an over-inflated, un-substantiated estimation of their relative experience and credibility.

I do apologise to the other forum members for allowing some of my posts to become personal on a public forum. However, the matter is personal for me.... and I have no hesitation to expose an idiot trainee divemaster when I see one. Such individuals are a plague in the dive industry and should be exposed, before they hurt people.