Back inflation BCD

[DevonDiver]

There is no such thing as perfect for everybody and every situation.

In which case you have two options.

1. Buy a different gear configuration for every conveivable situation.

2. Establish an optimum configuration that provides a baseline of safety and adds the most inherent benefit.

It is all a matter of what works for you and what you are comfortable in.

I am most comfortable in boardies and a rash guard, with no scuba, doing breath hold dives.

Is that my best choice for a 30m dive with 20min BT?

 

[Seaview7]

I think you're right. I will switch my profile to show I have a few thousand dives, so that my opinion (I never claimed to provide advice) will be more valid and "experts" like you don't regard it as nothing.

By the way, thanks for quoting Socrates, I figure that is your polite way of stating that less experienced divers are clueless and know nothing. Man, you sure sound like a very nice guy!

Thanks for the insight.

 

[DevonDiver]

No need to take offence. I am sure you have areas of expertise in your life, in which I could learn a great deal from you.

I did try and explain. Your opinion is perfectly valid, but there is a context to that validity. Likewise, you will never see me posting anything that could translate as 'guidance' or arguing points, on the cave or rebreather forums. Why? Because I am clueless and know nothing about those areas of diving.

Experience in the water does count for a lot. We were all newbie's once...and I remember clearly my level of knowledge and experience when I was in your situation. You'll have to trust me...that your viewpoints and understanding of the sport will certainly evolve over time....and, one day, you will look back on your current state of development and realize what you didn't know...which can be a shocking revelation.

The last thing I intended to do was to appear arrogant (sorry, if I failed in that) or to discourage you from taking part in the forum discussions. I just wanted to make it evidently clear that I had some depth of understanding behind my opinion/advice that rear inflation BCDs were not an optimum choice.

 

[stairman]

I have an opinion on this but am no expert. I dive BP/wing when not sidemounting and they do tend to push you forward at the surface. I just lean backwards on my tanks and all is good. Also only inflate enough to remain buoyant. Being trimmed while swimming is more important to me than whats happening on the surface. A slight head down profile underwater is what Im after and I wont fight a jacket the whole time trying to trim because it floats like a life preserver at the surface. Ive seen divers practically tip toeing across the bottom because trim hasent been tweeked yet and Im sure they float better upright on the surface so to each his own.

 

[Seaview7]

Thank you man (Devon Diver). Your last comment was indeed very nice and instructive. We're cool.

I'll see ya around the board.

 

[RAWalker]

DevonDiver:
While it appears from your profile info that you are a tech instructor with many logged dives and my profile may not appear as impressive as a Divemaster Candidate with fewer logged dives. I'll attempt to make a few more points to give insight to others reading this thread and provide a more balanced viewpoint.
A clue to your opinion may be in the fact that you list yourself as a tech instructor.
This leads me to believe that you work with divers that are pursuing tech diving and are therefore required to equip themselves properly for those applications. I believe you have lost sight of the fact that far more divers are pursing basic recreational diving and that the requirements for equipment are less demanding and more flexible.
Also as others have pointed out you are putting to much emphysis on the numbers that you see posted instead of the advise. While the numbers do have their place some people learn faster than others and that is something you can only figure out by reading both their opinions and others and starting to see who is expressing valid conclusions on a regular basis vs those people who's opinions and conclusions turn out to not be valid or just plain wrong.
Your earlier post you quoted me and poorly attempted to invalidate my conclusions this did little to help anyone. Optimum configurations while nice are not required as we look to exceed minimum requirements for safety and mitigate the risks of our sport to our own comfort level. Your other statement is just commenting out of context and shows your bad form. Maybe your tech students can appreciate your style but it doesn't fly here. Yes you were arrogant. Considering the context of the OP and the advise that was given you were just plan wrong also.
Althought a BP&W may suit the OP's needs and should be investigated as an option a Back inflator BCD is also a solid option and if it makes the diver more comfortable as a recreational diver them that is the better choice and for him closer to optimal.

 

[DevonDiver]

Firstly, I could only wish that I was entirely occupied with teaching technical courses. Recreational training and dive guiding on wrecks still takes up the majority of my working time....so I am far from out-of-touch with the needs of recreational divers.

Secondly, the issue of 'dive numbers' isn't so much about the issue of learning, but rather the accumulation of experience. With greater time spent in the water, the law of averages, will ensure that you meet, and learn from, an increasing array of problems, issues and emergencies. In this instance, it means more time in the water, with different equipment...and more chance to see how equipment performs under different circumstances.

In addition to the 'numbers' is the blunt fact, that these numbers were gained from having been immersed in the diving industry for years. Day-after-day, living my life in a dive center, on boats, in the water, in the kit room, in the compressor room...with 000's of different divers.... in Asia, Europe, the Middle East...at 000's of different sites, in cold water, in warm water, in fresh water, in strong current, in zero viz, in wrecks, on reefs, in storms.......

So, please please please, tell me all about rear-inflate BCDs...if you think you have anything to teach me about them.

I spend time on the forum...not for any personal gain... but because I care enough to offer my experience and guidance for free to those people who seek it. if the OP cares to take my advice, then that is their decision.... but my advice comes from extensive personal experience...and I know which choices lead to eventual disappointment..and which lead to contentment.

What a diver "wants" or "feels what is right for them" after 10, 50 or 100 dives...is not going to be what is best for them in the long run. So...if you'd care to share your experience about how your diving needs evolved after you reached the 100, 200, 500 and 1000 dive points.... please tell us all about it................

Lastly, I do not wish to hijack this thread into a discussion on the merits and failings of rear inflation BCDs. Perhaps start a new thread?

And, again, I am sorry if my posts appear arrogant.... I just find it very hard to phrase my replies in a humble manner whilst trying to equate the validity of relative experience with someone who hasn't yet gotten enough experience to understand how much they don't yet know.

As you progress through your Divemaster course, you will be able to look back at your own development and recognise how your understanding and experience on certain issues has evolved, matured and broadened. Now, multiply that realization by a 1000 and you may understand my perspective a little...

 

[Peter Guy]

I can't help but believe that a lot of the "Back Inflate BC Pushes You On Your Face" is, in no small part, dependent on where you dive -- i.e., what else you are wearing. For example, IF you are diving in warm water, using a thinnish wetsuit, floaty fins and an AL80, you may very well find yourself pushed onto your face while on the surface. OTOH, if you are in cold water, in a dry suit, using a negative steel tank and negative fins, you may well find yourself nicely balanced at the surface.

Also, are you using integrated weights that are in front or weights on the cambands that pull you back?

Unless you know the whole configuration, one really can't say where a Back Inflate BC will position you. Which, at least in my limited experience, is NOT true of a poodle BC -- it WILL keep you upright unless something is really skewed in your gear.

Regarding a BP/W -- I'd find it very hard to come up with a scenario where one wouldn't be pretty close to optimal -- if for no other reason than they are so much more flexible in how they can be setup than any "regular" BC. But I know some very highly experienced divers who absolutely disagree with me -- and I've never figured out their objection which while stated, doesn't match my experience in any way.

 

[RAWalker]

DevonDiver:
I can already recognize good instructors from those that are lacking.
I happen to work with an Instructor who's resume is at least equal to your, and I've discussed equipment choices with him and other instructors.
My opinion and experience happens to be in line with the majority. As I stated I happen to be a BP&W user but I also find a rear inflator BCD useful.
I have never before heard a instructor completely dismiss Jacket style BCD as you do.
One final note for you... Your experience doesn't amout to a hill of beans if you keep repeating the same mistakes. So again numbers can amount to very little when looked at in proper the context. In fact you may have 5000+ dives and have been lucky enough not to have made a mistake in judgement that bit you. Or your first 100 dives could have been near disasters that you were lucky enough to survive unharmed and used each dive as a learning experience. Or you could do 5000+ dives in your local pond and have actually experienced very little while an active traveling diver may have gained far more experience with 100 dives in varied conditions.
What I find most disturbing is just your attitude. I'm glad I've found better instructors in my area.

 

[RAWalker]

Peter Guy:
Having tried a couple of back inflator BCD and helped work a few friends with them through the face plant problem I can tell you that as long as they have rear trim pockets you can get them to perform well. It really isn't difficult either just put 1/3rd of your weight in the rear trim pockets and adjust the tank mounting position for good horizontal trim. The only other thing is to realize that a BCD is supposed to keep your head out of the water while at the surface not any more than that. While a standard jacket with it's wrap around bladder can get you higher out of the water this isn't necessary or the design intent. The Back inflator style are stable if you use them properly without over inflating.