B.S. Rule

[Mike Edmonston]

It is a dangerous decision by the diver enabled by the equipment.

I have to dissagree with you there. If people are going to break their training limits, then they will do it notwithstanding. What you are doing is what most of America is doing, putting the blame on the equipment or someone else instead of taking personal accountability and responsability for one's actions.

Following your logic:
- cars should not go over 70mph. Someone could speed and get killed.
- pools should be no deeper that 5 ft. Diving isn't an issue because the boards would be removed due to the danger factor. etc...

It's a slippery slope. Where is society going to draw the line between keeping us safe from ourselves, and letting people make their own decisions and mistakes?

Anyway, back to your statement. Doubles are perfectly acceptable. They offer redundancy in gas supply and are the baseline configuration for the rest of your training. When I did my training, I started in cavern with doubles. It got me used to the trim, equipment drills etc... that you need for the whole course. It's more of a task load to do everything well in a single tank, then move to doubles at a later date. Going into apprentice and up, the dives are longer,and more involved. If you're having to relearn trim, balance, valve drills etc... you're not going to perform as well.

Dive to your training limits. People that routinely break this rule, don't usually hang around the planet long enough to be a problem. OTOH, they also get sites closed!

Cheers

 

[Meng_Tze]

.... What you are doing is what most of America is doing, putting the blame on the equipment or someone else instead of taking personal accountability and responsability for one's actions.

And this is core to MANY issues, rules, policies and laws we see.

 

[ianr33]

I dont own a single tank (except an Al 40) All my local dives are in doubles. The last time I did a single tank dive was on vacation in Cayman. Had I used a single for intro I would have been diving unfamiliar gear!

IF and its a big IF,a diver is already familiar with drysuits,doubles and deco then I see nothing wrong with doing intro like that.

On the other hand if a diver is progressing to cave from open water then a single tank would make sense.

Why is Advanced Nitrox typically taught in doubles? It could be argued that divers at that level would be safer in singles so as to limit the amount of deco they could incur.

Which is safer? Diving a cave filled single 130 to 1/3rds or a set of Al 80 doubles to 1/3rds? They both contain the same amount of gas,yet the "approved" tank has less redundancy.

It would make more sense to me to have a sign on the Gold Line (similar to the Grim Reaper sign) that states "Intro Divers Stop Here !!!!! rather then trying to restrict penetration distances by limiting gas supplies.

 

[BabyDuck]

the point is what nacd/nss-cds/gue say by standards you're allowed to do.

if you used doubles in intro or have showed your instructor you have a clue in them, the card gives you the 'go ahead' or your instructor'll give you discretionary apprentice sheets over & over, and you can dive doubles in places that hold you to the standards of your highest card.

if not, then not.

*much* sillier, in my opinion, to not allow cave divers in company of ow divers not to have lights because the drift dive starts at devil's. what, i have no self control and *must* take ow divers into the eye & kill them??

and don't push your luck slipping doubles by at ginnie. your arm band is color coded for your level & there are people (the aforementioned eric is one) watching.

 

[Daedalus]

I have to dissagree with you there. If people are going to break their training limits, then they will do it notwithstanding. What you are doing is what most of America is doing, putting the blame on the equipment or someone else instead of taking personal accountability and responsability for one's actions.

The problem is perception. The peril of breaching 1/3rds on a single is a lot more obvious than breaching 1/6ths on a set of doubles. The decision to try out a "simple" jump, or go up a couple Ts does not seem like a big deal when you have a larger gas supply.

I know everyone on the internet has iron discipline and is as pure as the driven snow; but in the real world there are intro divers who are walking, talking, and diving like full cave divers, but they have not finished their training. The normalization of doubles as an acceptable intro configuration is encouraging it. If you want to get practice at the intro level in doubles, get a discretionary apprentice waiver and sign up for an apprentice class. If you are just starting out, or have no interest in moving on in training, doubles are unnecessary.

This is all my opinion as someone who a year ago was complaining about not being allowed to dive doubles at Ginnie. Now I see the other side of the issue.

 

[Meng_Tze]

and don't push your luck slipping doubles by at ginnie. your arm band is color coded for your level & there are people (the aforementioned eric is one) watching.

Not true, colours are for the day.

 

[Meng_Tze]

The problem is perception. The peril of breaching 1/3rds on a single is a lot more obvious than breaching 1/6ths on a set of doubles. The decision to try out a "simple" jump, or go up a couple Ts does not seem like a big deal when you have a larger gas supply.

Then one could argue the validity of that intro level as well...? Why teach someone to do something, but then tell them 'they cant do it' by limiting their gas. It is like putting crack in front of an addict.... but they can't touch it.

We can argue/debate day and night about this. Mike and I are of the same opinion: assuming accountability and responsibility.

 

[BabyDuck]

oops, you're right - level is written on the band. still, i've been checked. maybe i'm the only one ever, but there it is...

 

[Mike Edmonston]

If you are just starting out, or have no interest in moving on in training, doubles are unnecessary.

Then we must agree to dissagree. I don't know of many cave divers that spent the money to go through Cavern and Intro and said "good enough, I'll stop here" I could be wrong, but most get bitten by the bug and go onto full cave.

My point is, let them get the experience in Doubles. Believe it or not, the amount of cavers that break thirds or dive training is very small IMHO. Those that do, eventually have a "Let's meet god" dive, and never break the rules again. Sometimes they don't make it out. Like I tell my students: "You break the rules, you're gonna lose..."

Cheers

 

[ianr33]

Hey Mike !
that quote in your last post was from Daedalus,not me.

I'm on your side here