Article on Death In Ginnie Springs

[Steve_C]

If a driver dies in a car accident and appears to have been drunk. They test for alcohol. They do not test for cyanide. Many deaths of all types in US are not tested at all if there is no reason to expect foul play. Are some deads missed? Yes. Money is not there for extensive testing with every accidental death.

 

[CptTightPants21]

I can't remember if I said this before... maybe if I did it got lost in the noise of the internet forum diving experts.

If there is a dive fatality, the gas content, amongst other things, has to be properly analysed. This is something only an independent and certified professional Lab can do (or maybe NEDU, if you entirely trust the military...).

Granted that I am 100% sure (my opinion, not fact) that in this case it was human/team error and Carlos unintentionally exposed himself to O2 too deep, we can't know that there was not a small amount of cyanide in his tank (just an example, but if you want to take somebody out a few guys could get together, agree a story, and kill another guy with a cyanide laced tank).

Cyanide would show in an autopsy and this is just a crazy example which comes to mind and not applicable here specifically, but it is for the purpose of making a point which maybe, just maybe, some, but not all, can understand.

I am still waiting for that example.

Do you have an example where gas content was analyzed by this magical lab you keep mentioning? Or has every scuba fatality for the last 40 years been done the same way with a highly experienced, trained, scuba instructor/technician relaying his findings to the police. If you are going to respond I would appreciate it if you would answer my question first, you can say you can't find one and I will accept that, but it is pretty silly that you can't answer a simple question that is to the heart of your case.

 

[Abdullah]

I can't remember if I said this before... maybe if I did it got lost in the noise of the internet forum diving experts.

If there is a dive fatality, the gas content, amongst other things, has to be properly analysed. This is something only an independent and certified professional Lab can do (or maybe NEDU, if you entirely trust the military...).

Granted that I am 100% sure (my opinion, not fact) that in this case it was human/team error and Carlos unintentionally exposed himself to O2 too deep, we can't know that there was not a small amount of cyanide in his tank (just an example, but if you want to take somebody out a few guys could get together, agree a story, and kill another guy with a cyanide laced tank).

Cyanide would show in an autopsy and this is just a crazy example which comes to mind and not applicable here specifically, but it is for the purpose of making a point which maybe, just maybe, some, but not all, can understand.

You can smell cyanide in the gas. But it could have been acute plutonium poisoning that caused him to lose consciousness too. Maybe they set up a criticality and he got caught in a neutron flash and passed out.

You need to identify the lab protocol that would be capable of identifying any possible scenario that any possible ingenious murderer might possibly devise. It's not economically feasible for police to investigate every incident as if it were a national crisis, unless you have some affordable process that eliminates the thousands of permutations that could be involved in any possible scenario.

So, name the process. Which police departments use it? Provide a case that demonstrates this occurs in real life, rather than in your imagination.

 

[MMM]

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A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

Another slew of posts deleted because they are simply bickering or off topic. Some people...more than a few...might want to step away from the keyboard. Marg. SB Senior Mod

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[Stoo]

My question to the OP/article author, was there an insurance claim, where a private investigation was conducted?

There is an outstanding insurance claim. To the best of my knowledge (about six months ago), a partial payout has been made, but the Company is withholding the balance, pending their own investigation. Their reason for doing so is that while Carlos revealed (correctly and accurately) that he was a diver when he took out the policy, he very quickly became involved in tech diving, after he had taken out the policy. I know this from a conversation with someone close to the investigation. Apparently Carlos was obliged to inform the Insurer of any change in his situation within some period of time, and the Company alleges that he didn't do this...

When I heard this, I talked to my own life insurance guys and they advised that many policies obligate the Insured to advise the Insurer of a change of their situation, WITHIN SIX MONTHS OF TAKING OUT THE POLICY. This might have been the case with Carlos has he progressed very quickly into tech diving after he got his OW certification.

All the same, you all might want to have a discussion with your life insurance carrier and confirm you are covered properly.

 

[Ayisha]

Hey Stu, what kind of changes do insurance companies consider significant? Technical diving is still considered recreational diving, as opposed to commercial diving.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

Hey Stu, what kind of changes do insurance companies consider significant? Technical diving is still considered recreational diving, as opposed to commercial diving.

Your policy - the specific one that has your policy number on it, not any other document - read it. I'm not trying to be a smart ass for a change, that really is the only thing that matters in terms of what's significant.

 

[scagrotto]

many policies obligate the Insured to advise the Insurer of a change of their situation, WITHIN SIX MONTHS OF TAKING OUT THE POLICY.

There's the important part. There may be exceptions, but life insurance policies generally have a contestability period, much as they have a period during which they won't pay out for suicide. If you take out a policy and tell them you're an OW certified diver who does a few dozen dives year and shortly after that you die on a technical dive there's an awfully good chance that the insurance company is going to be looking for evidence that the technical dive that killed you wasn't a rare exception to your normal diving activities or that you had plans to take up tech diving when you told them you were just a simple OW diver.

I'll guess that if Carlo's policy made a partial payment and withheld something it's based on an accidental death rider that excludes some types of diving (regardless of it still being recreational diving). If they could have canceled the policy completely or excluded any coverage based on the type of diving if they had been notified within some time limit I expect they would have withheld all payment pending an investigation.

As noted above, if you think your life insurance is worth paying for you should know what's in your specific policy. As I recall there are absolutely no exclusions in the death benefit portion of my policy, but the accidental death benefit has a few. Though I don't remember all of the exclusions or details I know there was nothing that bothered me, though there's a very small chance I could die in an accident where the accidental death benefit wouldn't apply.

 

[mdax]

I hope you got paid well for those misguided wonderings.
It's clear to everyone else why Carlos died, your observations are ridiculous.

 

[Stoo]

I am not familiar with the specifics of his insurance, but based on the discussion I had with my guy (who doesn't dive, or know anything about it) it boiled down to an increased amount of risk... While "technical" diving may be considered "recreational" diving, I don't think there's any doubt that the degree of risk changes significantly. Diving in 30' of warm ocean is much different than diving 190', a km back in a cave.

As my guy explained it, after 6 months, the requirement may not be there.

As Dr. Lecter pointed out, the only document that matters is the one with your name on it. I would certainly recommend that if in doubt, schedule some time with your life insurance vendor and make sure you know what's in your policy!