Arrow/cookie protocol survey

[rjack321]

I was referring to the unmarked jump where there are no double arrows. When I am in agreement with the double arrows provided its not crowded, I'll just tie in between them.

And you do something different when its crowded??

I like the "cookie for everything" consistency myself. When I'm stressed potentially in the dark, I won't need to try and figure out how this intersection was or was not different from another.

I don't know how to address the sliding issue. If its a significant angle I can see this being a problem. But I don't see why you'd be taking off at a 15deg angle from the line in the first place. Most marked and unmarked jumps I've seen are 70-120 degree kinda things.

 

[rjack321]

i guess if it's not absolutely necessary to navigation, i dont bother

kind of clutters up the place

(anway ... i'm not full cave either so ... take with grain of salt)

I was taught that every team member has to drop a cookie on the outbound side of a change in arrow direction. To make sure that the whole team saw the change and has noted it. One of those things which probably isn't 100% necessary either. Until its dark and/or stressed and half the team thinks the arrows point to the exit and the other half disagrees.

 

[H2Andy]

the arrows do point to the closest exit

but yeah, i guess if you're in the dark and possibly confused, there's no question which way you came with all the cookies there

 

[loosebits]

Yes, if its crowded (e.g. a line already between the arrows), I'll place my own arrow.

Sliding isn't a terrible big issue but I just want to make sure my line stays put and I want my directional marker to be right at the end of it (doing a lights out drill crossing jumps sure is a lot more fun when you get to the end of the line and there is your marker). Another good reason I can think that you wouldn;t want any possibility of movement is if another team gets caught in your line. If it isn't secured on a cookie or between two arrows, the diver may end up dragging it and freeing some placments causing a lot of slack in the line.

Now, perhaps I will switch to using cookies for everything but I will tie into them so they will need to be marked in such a way that they can indicate direction (by feel) to me and my team.

I was taught that only the leader places markers and signals the team that he has done so.

 

[rjack321]

the arrows do point to the closest exit

but yeah, i guess if you're in the dark and possibly confused, there's no question which way you came with all the cookies there

Closest could mean alot of things (sidemount territory?). I wouldn't try and go anyway but the direction I came in.

 

[rjack321]

I was taught that only the leader places markers and signals the team that he has done so.

We each placed and removed our own markers at all Ts. (I have done fixed Ts (max 1 allowed) but not jumps since I'm not full cave)

 

[karstdvr]

Making an unmarked jump:
Tie into my arrow which is pointing towards my exit

.

What if your exit isn't the closest way out? Your marker should never contradict the markers that are present,even if those markers aren't clearly in your immediate view.

A common mistake people make is putting in a line arrow for their direction of travel,not necessarily the closest way for an exiting team to find the surface.

A common example I see is a team doing the crossover circuit at Peacock from the peanut line. When they come out of the crossover near Olsen they will put a line arrow in pointing toward P1 because that is the direction of their travel,although Olsen is only 150' away,the line arrow points them 1300' the wrong way.

 

[Meng_Tze]

A common mistake people make is putting in a line arrow for their direction of travel,not necessarily the closest way for an exiting team to find the surface.

A common example I see is a team doing the crossover circuit at Peacock from the peanut line. When they come out of the crossover near Olsen they will put a line arrow in pointing toward P1 because that is the direction of their travel,although Olsen is only 150' away,the line arrow points them 1300' the wrong way.

But by setting the arrow to your exit, at least you know that exit is there and accessible.... I don't know necesarily that the original arrow exit is accessible. Where I came from, at least I know is open.... I just came from there.

 

[loosebits]

What if your exit isn't the closest way out? Your marker should never contradict the markers that are present,even if those markers aren't clearly in your immediate view.

A common mistake people make is putting in a line arrow for their direction of travel,not necessarily the closest way for an exiting team to find the surface.

A common example I see is a team doing the crossover circuit at Peacock from the peanut line. When they come out of the crossover near Olsen they will put a line arrow in pointing toward P1 because that is the direction of their travel,although Olsen is only 150' away,the line arrow points them 1300' the wrong way.

That's what I was taught. One reason I posted this is to gain an understanding of what others are doing. I may change my methods someday but considering the methods I stated are obviously being taught by some popular cave instructors (H2Andy seems to have been taught the same methods), people should be aware that personal line arrows shouldn't be trusted and obviously a lone arrow with a line tied into it is a personal arrow.

 

[loosebits]

Btw, I know of another cave instructor that is teaching the following:

If an arrow ever contradicts your exit, lay your own personal arrow down right past it pointing to your own exit.

I'm not saying I like that guys method but if you ever find yourself lost in a cave that one of his students have been diving in the navigation of the system is going to be completely screwed up. Lesson: Do not trust someone elses personal arrows.