Argon vs Air in dry suits

[DSV1]

New to dry suit diving, I have but one important question relating to the use of argon gas as an insolent from the cold. Some folks have told me that argon, argon bottles and the whip are all a waste of money because argon gas doesn't provide any better insulation from the cold than air. I tried to find information on the web about this but found nothing.

Thanks

 

[Uncle Pug]

I tried to find information on the web about this but found nothing.

Thanks

anything worth knowing about diving can be found here on Scuba Board. Don't waste your time searching the web... search Scuba Board instead!

In the menu bar you will find Search. Entering ARGON in the search field and hitting enter will get you quite a lot of great information.

Specifically look for posts by Uncle Pug. He will give you the best answers because he is the Voice of Reason and is very smart too.

Yes... there are those who say that argon is not effective... one (Bob3) will even try to point out a study that involved rectal thermometers. Pay no attention to folks who talk about such things. The human body is able to maintain core temp by burning more fuel so of course these thermometers measured the same with or without argon in the suit.

Yes... argon is effective. But it is only effective if the suit is pre-purged with argon. Just adding a little spritz of argon to a suit filled with air will be of no benefit other than perhaps a placebo effect (shoot, I shouldn't have said that....now, in your case, the placebo effect is severly compromised.... oh well....)

 

[boomx5]

I agree with "the voice of reason"...Argon is effective and does work.

 

[paulwlee]

This is a matter of constant debate.
When doing dives of reasonable depth, I'm not sure if purging really makes a difference.
At 100ft (4ATA) the gas in the suit will be 75% Ar and 25% air. Since the difference in thermal conductivity is only 50%, not sure if it will make much difference in this case.

As for personal experience, I'm not sure if Argon is noticably warmer or not. There are so many variables: how well rested you are, did you eat enough food, water temperature, air temperature, how much you sweated in your undergarment before entering the water to cool off (yes, this is a major factor in warmth!), activity level during the dive, and most importantly the placebo effect.

I've come to the conclusion that although there might be real benefits, it's not as apparent as switching to drygloves from wetgloves, getting a thicker hood, or getting a warmer undergarment, all of which made me VERY NOTICABLY warmer.

These days I only use argon when diving my double tank setup, which usually involves helium, which precludes drysuit inflation from the backgas. Since I need another inflation gas anyway, I use Argon in this case as it's cheap enough and people say it works. ;-)
When diving single tanks, when I dive air, I inflate using backgas, as I don't feel that the added bulk and hassle gives me that much in return.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

Theoretically, argon should be about 1/3 more efficient than air as an insulator, but this assumes a perfectly purged suit and it is in practice very very hard to fully purge the suit and get all of the air in the insulating undergarment displaced. It also takes a lot of argon to do this effectively.

But theory aside, I have to go with the evidence. A double blind study was recently completed and presented at a DAN conference indicating that there were no difference in perception of cold between divers using air or argon in their suits and their was also no measurable difference in skin and core temps of divers with and without argon. (this would be the rectal thermometer study UP is talking about - although skin temp was also measured as well.)

The double blind experiemental design removed the placebo effect as well as any other bias on the part of the experimenters and subjects. Once you control for and remove these effects, there is no measurable effect left at all.

This is consitent with my personal experience as well. (I have always been somewhat of a skeptic given the logical operational limitations in effectively purging the suit so I probably never fully benefitted from the placebo effect.) As indicated above adding warmer undergarments, warmer gloves, or even just adding a little more air in the suit to fully loft the insulation make you noticeably warmer.

Argon just does not work in keeping you warm in real world conditions. Those who think it does are either in denial or still benefitting from a placebo effect and just think they are warmer. A grown up diver believing in argon is kinda like a grown up diver believing in Santa Claus but is more socally acceptable as argon use is still considered "cool" to use.

But...don't throw your argon bottle away yet. It will still come in handy with trimix as you can fill it with air, and air is measurably warmer in your suit that helium mixes.

 

[ScubaScott]

Thanks guys, thats good to know.... I was considering the argon thing to aid in warming my bones, but I don't dive He yet, so we'll leave that on the back burner for now.

I believe that I now believe that argon is not worth the money or the hassle.... until someone comes back next week and refutes all the above info.....

SS

 

[Uncle Pug]

The double blinded study cited simply misses the point.

Since we are warm blooded our bodies compensate to maintain temp. It isn't about how you *feel* that counts... or even what your temp *is* that counts... it is about the extra stress placed on the organism to maintain temp.

And you know that extra stress is indeed an important factor.

That aside.... I only use argon on dives where I have helium in my back gas. And if I am going to use argon on the dive I take extra care to purge the suit with argon before the dive. Three total suit fills and purges does the job. Expensive? Yes... but minimal compared to the back gas.

Single tank recreation dives using air or nitrox in moderately cold waters? Don't bother with argon. I agree that drygloves and a good hood will be a better return on investment... not only in making you *feel* warmer but in reducing metabolic stress.

 

[BigJetDriver]

Specifically look for posts by Uncle Pug. He will give you the best answers because he is the Voice of Reason and is very smart too.

....And, by God, he is extremely modest as well!!!!!!!!!

 

[boomx5]

The double blinded study cited simply misses the point.

Since we are warm blooded our bodies compensate to maintain temp. It isn't about how you *feel* that counts... or even what your temp *is* that counts... it is about the extra stress placed on the organism to maintain temp.

And you know that extra stress is indeed an important factor.

That aside.... I only use argon on dives where I have helium in my back gas. And if I am going to use argon on the dive I take extra care to purge the suit with argon before the dive. Three total suit fills and purges does the job. Expensive? Yes... but minimal compared to the back gas.

Single tank recreation dives using air or nitrox in moderately cold waters? Don't bother with argon. I agree that drygloves and a good hood will be a better return on investment... not only in making you *feel* warmer but in reducing metabolic stress.

Uhh...so what you're saying is that you believe in Santa Clause...right?

 

[jonnythan]

Here's my question.

Did the test put sufficient thermal stress on the divers to actually see their core body temperature reduce significantly? Seems to me it's kind of irrelevant if no one's core temperature changed. A good test would drive them all into mild hypothermia then look at the differences.