Argon? I have the gas but is it worth the trouble?

[Mr.X]

If you have it around why not use it? Personally, I have only noticed the slightest difference in really cold water. 33-40F.

There's a story (years ago) about a well-known Scottish boat captain swapping dry suit gas on a well-known technical diver. The diver comes out of the water extolling the virtues of argon. Meanwhile, crew and captain are laughing hysterically knowing they only gave him air for his suit gas.

X

 

[Mitchell]

I was diving in 39 degree water the other day with argon. didn't notice any difference. flushed the suit twice. extra bottle and reg to carry and service does not make sense to me unless you are diving trimix.

 

[AlaskaDiver]

If you've got it, give it a try. I have used it and didn't particularly feel any sort of heat difference during the dive itself. Meaning, it was neither providing warmth nor a warming sensation. Also, I only add a few squirts into my suit to relieve the squeeze rather than using my drysuit predominantly for buoyancy as some folks do. I let the BCD and my lungs do the work. Repeatedly adding and releasing air during a dive will make you feel the temp of the tank (usually the same as the H2O temperature). I found the difference between argon & air/EANx in my drysuit to be a lessening of the chill during my surface intervals. Perhaps this is a psychosomatic response. I don't know for certain. It works for me, I don't use a lot of the gas so I will continue to use it on cold water dives.

Based on others' opinions, I'd like to read more on the statistics. Usage in a trimix situation is a differerent application. I assumed you meant on a recreational dive.

I'm curious to know if this is a perception issue (remember when EANx became popular to use and people insisted they did not feel a difference?).

My thoughts are that if you feel warmer and you can stay down a few minutes longer, not be chilled during your surface interval and enjoy the second dive, it is worth it.

 

[Gene_Hobbs]

As posted on another forum by me yesterday:

The only paper done (argon vs. air) to date is here:

Risberg and Hope. Thermal insulation properties of argon used as a dry suit inflation gas. Undersea Hyperb Med. 2001 Fall;28(3):137-43. RRR ID: 2380

The methods used in this test were weak at best.

Weinberg did a nice study using CO2 as an inflation gas that showed a 19% improvement over air. CO2 and Argon having similar properties (compared to air) does lend one to further consideration. The Weinberg test results could be attributed to drysuit/ insulation choice so again, the study is not perfect.

Weinberg. Alternate drysuit inflation gas for improved thermal protection. In: Proceedings of the DCIEM Diver Thermal Protection Workshop, Defence and Civil Institute of Environmental Medicine, Toronto, CA, 31 Jan-2 Feb 1989. Edited by RY Nishi, Workshop Chairmen TT Romet and JA Sterba. RRR ID: 3922

So, as we can see, there has been a real need for an objective test for a while. I hope that this has been met by the data Lew will be presenting at the UHMS meeting this year. He presented some preliminary data from the thermal manikins collected while testing the new aerogel undergarments at the DAN Technical Conference. If the abstract is accepted, we will have some real measurements to hang our hats on in the near future (from NEDU).

More reading on thermal protection can be found here.

 

[AlaskaDiver]

Thanks Gene Hobbs. The RRR ID 2380 which you reference above has n=6 divers in the study. I thought the number of subjects studied has to be n>30 to be considered reliable? The study is a good start though. I liked the Rubicon Foundation website and was looking over other articles. The website presents a good starting point for those scientifically interested in further exploring and studying diving.

 

[mempilot]

If you have it around why not use it?

In this case, I would. I usually just top the 6cf with another tank. Takes two seconds. But, if I had the gas laying around for another use, I would use it for grins. I wouldn't use it unless 100% though. The theory goes south with it being a mix itself.

BTW, if one is using Argon in a bottle. It should be labeled as such, since Argon is not breathable. Once it has an argon label on it, *some* shops will not fill it with anything but argon. Double edged sword. Kinda like, "Once you go Mempilot, you'll never go back."

 

[Teamcasa]

So, as we can see, there has been a real need for an objective test for a while. I hope that this has been met by the data Lew will be presenting at the UHMS meeting this year. He presented some preliminary data from the thermal manikins collected while testing the new aerogel undergarments at the DAN Technical Conference. If the abstract is accepted, we will have some real measurements to hang our hats on in the near future (from NEDU).

More reading on thermal protection can be found here.

Thanks so much Gene. Real data trumps anecdotal evidence every time.

Seems like we do need some real testing but Aerogel ? Groovy stuff but out of my budget.

The consensus is – pass on Argon for SoCal diving.

 

[mempilot]

LOL. That test was anecdotal evidence. The proof is in the hundreds of comments over the years by people that say they don't feel any difference or it is negligibal. If you hang out on boards where nearly 100% of the members dive decompression profiles (simply longer time in the cold water, or warm water, for the effects of drawing body temp down to play a part on internals, "shivers"), you will see that there are the believers and the nay-sayers. The nay-sayers are the bigger population. 'Ask the audience' works 99% of the time on Who Wants To Be A Millionair.

 

[scott&sara]

Here is my quick and dirty calculation. To me it is obvious that insulation thickness is way more important than the gas (not counting He as we know He is not good at all). But it appears there is a small benefit approx. 15% using Ar over Air.

Scott

 

[jlovold]

Thanks so much Gene. Real data trumps anecdotal evidence every time.

Seems like we do need some real testing but Aerogel ? Groovy stuff but out of my budget.

The consensus is – pass on Argon for SoCal diving.

Or: If you plan on using your drysuit for buoyancy control, and/or in combination with relatively thin low-quality undersuit unable to hold the gas, you might as well use air, as the gas will flow through your undersuit every time you move or change your trim.

Also, the divers in the test should have had enough insulation to make sure they could last at least for a couple of hours in that water-temperature...

My personal feeling is that Argon helps. Not very much, but enough to make it worthwhile on long, cold dives, and if you have it, then it could be worthwhile using it on shorter dives as well.