Are some signals just plain stupid?

[Phil_C]

I have always been told that the mask on forehead story was an urban myth that refuses to die, and was likely instigated by an instructor fed up with students who kept losing masks off their forehead so made it up to stop them doing it.

As far as I am concerned the mask should either be on your face, around your neck, or securely stored somewhere else. To put it on you forehead is to invite losing it when it pings off due to a wave, careless hand gesture etc. I have seen this myself quite a few times with masks getting dislodged from the forehead, especially in surf.

I have never seen it listed or pictured in any training manual or book as a recognised sign, and frankly to suggest a panicked diver is going to carefully put his mask on his forehead to signal he is distressed is not really likely. Rip it off and hold it in his hand maybe, but if he is that desperate to breath he certainly will not neatly slide it up his forehead.

For the "large" OK sign, which I always interpret as a half a MOBOT (look up the distance runner Mo Farrah if your don't know it) and makes perfect sense as some have already said to be visible clearly in waves and at a distance from the boat.



What is important is that everyone is on the same page - you all know what signs to expect to see, and give, and what they will be used for. So long as you get that off right then it doesn't matter what ones you use, their purpose is to convey a message, if they do it, mission accomplished. Best - Phil.

 

[Storker]

The hand or fist on top of head

...is a pretty good signal.

When I'm tending the boat, it's not uncommon that some of the divers surface some distance from it. On shore dives, it's not uncommon to surface a bit out. And the one-handed "OK" finger signal is, as has been mentioned, a bit difficult to see from a distance.

Now, if I'm tending the boat or keeping track of the divers from the shore, I want to see some kind of signal from you when you surface. Either you give the big OK (fist on head is nice, since you can use the other hand to hang on to your camera, pole spear or catch bag), you signal distress by waving at least one straight arm repeatedly from horizontal to vertical and down again, or you give me the arm straight up which means "I've got some minor problems and would appreciate if you could come and get me, but don't rush, because there's no major emergency". If I don't get a recognizable signal from you (that is, recognizable from a distance), I could easily assume that you're in so deep do-do that you don't even have the presence of mind to make contact with me.

 

[Phil_C]

If you've ever seen a panicked diver reject their gear at the surface youd change your assumption.

The real confusion seems to be that a great many people seem to make the assumption that in order for a "sign" to be "a sign" that it must be absolute and universal.

You've no doubt seen patients with a respiratory infection who did not have a fever, I assume. Similarly, you've seen people with an elevated body temperature who did not have a respiratory infection. So would you then suggest that a fever is not a possible symptom of an infection? Of course not.

The fact of the matter is that it is not uncommon for a panicked diver to reject their gear upon surfacing. Feeling like they can't breathe, panicked divers will often spit their regs and shove their mask off their face. Sometimes the mask comes off... but in these cases the mask often ends up on their forehead.

It happens.

I've seen it.

In an endeavor where it only takes a second for a person in trouble to slip beneath the water and die, I will continue to take notice whenever someone surfaces and pushes their mask up on their forehead. I will not, of course, immediately dive into the water and drag them out. But I will take a second to evaluate whether other possible signs of distress are present. (Just as you wouldn't diagnosis pneumonia based on a fever alone.)

If a diver with a mask on their forehead is comfortably chatting with their buddy about the dive there's obviously no problem. However, if they are breathing a little rapidly/shallow... perhaps they don't look to have established adequate positive buoyancy... are their eyes looking around maybe for a buddy that's not there... are they kicking hard and sculling with their hands?

You can assume that a diver with a mask on their forehead is fine. For my part, having been involved in rescues where noticing a mask shoved up on the victim's forehead was the first sign that something might be wrong, I'll continue to invest the one additional second necessary to actually confirm that they are OK before turning my attention elsewhere.

I agree completely - always worth watching and checking that things are OK with every surfacing diver, and not relaxing until you are happy they have established positive buoyancy and are fine - P

 

[packrat12]

And most of the rescues I have been involved with, the mask tended to be either missing or even pulled down and covering their mouth. I have never seen an even minimally experienced diver (beyond OW training) take the time to pull their mask up to their forehead when panicked.. In a pool, I have seen a number of different rejections but most of the time, they are underwater for the first time or early anyway.

I am not your student either. Your perception of what panic is in an experienced diver, e.g. not your student, should entail a lot more than where their mask is.

As for relating this to an illness, it would be more like taking you to the hospital because you had a single cough.... Mask off, reg out, sculling, breathing hard, overall flailing is a good sign of panic. Calm at surface is not!

 

[Storker]

Great. You only have 1.63 billion more corrections left to make on the internetz. Good luck!

 

[Akimbo]

I started diving before both signals/indicators were around. The touching the top of the head came about because it was hard to tell an OK sign from waving for help, at least until it became frantic. It is one of the few signals you can make with only your head above water that is easily distinguished from a distance.

You’re not going to stop the mask on forehead since most people don’t like to converse with their nose blocked. Yes you can lose your mask a little more easily, but not with marginal situational awareness.

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ad...ons/398734-preventing-mask-loss-vs-spare.html

This thread lead me to some experiments that turned out to provide functional advantages I never anticipated. Jump to Post #33 for the current iteration.

 

[uncfnp]

If you've ever seen a panicked diver reject their gear at the surface youd change your assumption.

The real confusion seems to be that a great many people seem to make the assumption that in order for a "sign" to be "a sign" that it must be absolute and universal.

You've no doubt seen patients with a respiratory infection who did not have a fever, I assume. Similarly, you've seen people with an elevated body temperature who did not have a respiratory infection. So would you then suggest that a fever is not a possible symptom of an infection? Of course not.

RJP I have no problem with you staying hypervigilant but I guess this is one of the few pet peeves I have since it means that someone is making invalid assumptions about me. I have never seen any distressed diver with MOF although I admit I have seen few distressed divers at the surface since I am usually first off and last on the boat. My understanding is that rather then thrashing around drowning victims tend to quietly slip beneath the waves. But divers may be different. But even then, rejecting gear is not the same as calmly placing mask on forehead.

And when is my mask most likely to be on my forehead? Its not when I am in the water but when I am on the boat waiting to splash. If you want to come to my rescue then I will be happy to let you clip my pony or deco bottle for me.

As for fever, we have become a fever phobic society. A little fever can be beneficial. And it doesn't really tell me what is wrong if anything, just like the MOF.

 

[C P]

I have seen several instances where uncomfortable divers in the water have simply pushed their mask up on the forehead or down to their neck. I like to explain to students that it is inconvienent to lose and it is a sign ( a sign is something you see in others) that they are in control if they have the presence of mind to properly and safely secure/stow it against being lost by doing something. They give me the OK sign and do something rational like safeguarding equipment there is a pretty good chance they really are OK. The mask on the forehead is something that will cause a little more scrutiny before I decide.

Now one time discussing hand signals in a class did cause issues when a five year old had come in to the classroom unknown to us and ended up shooting the bird to her mother later that night.

 

[RJP]

I am not your student either. Your perception of what panic is in an experienced diver, e.g. not your student, should entail a lot more than where their mask is.

Yeah... sort of like I said above.

PS - several of the rescues I referenced above were experienced divers, not students

 

[Storker]

Mask off, reg out, sculling, breathing hard, overall flailing is a good sign of panic. Calm at surface is not!

Actually, it may well be.


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