Are Rescue Skills really needed by the average diver.... ?

[guruboy]

If you want to factor in "rentals, entrance fees, travel expences, etc." for the THREE adventure dives, you should do so for the TEN "fun dives" as well...

If SEI requires 10 minimum logged dives, then sure, we can include those in the comparison. Guesstimate $80-800 for that then.

So added costs to take rescue gets closer to each other but it seems SEI OW still provides more rescue training as part of the standard package.

Does SEI require first aid also?

 

[WheelsUSN]

I think that what SEI requires and what Jim provides may be just as far apart from each other as Jim's class and a standard PADI class. From what I can find online SEI does require more class and pool time but in exchange doesn't require as much to be demonstrated in open water. I may be wrong but going by the information on SEI's website if your class contains 36 hours of classroom and pool work then all of your skills can be conducted on one OW dive. Your remaining dives can be conducted under the watchful eyes of a DM while the instructor supervises from the surface.

Based on the information on the website, the DM course doesn't have a minimum number of dives as a prerequisite, just that you are an OW diver who has completed the SEI Dive Rescue and Management course. Taking Jim's word that you have to have 10 dives between OW and DRAM (the website doesn't list any prerequisites for the course), the DM candidate could have as few as 15 dives before entering the DM course (DRAM requires one OW dive). The DM course only requires 5 dives. The agency standards will let someone with as few as 20 dives be responsible for supervising all but the first OW dive for a new student.

Does this ever happen? Probably not but thats because the instructors probably have higher standards than the agency. As is almost always said when someone asks which agency provides the best training, its not the agency that matters, its the instructor. Even though I've never met him, based on what I've seen here I don't have any doubts about Jim being an outstanding instructor however his constant bashing of other agencies in order to declare how superior his is doesn't seem to hold up on inspection.

I could be completely wrong on what I've stated about SEI standards but all of the information that I've presented came off either SEi's website or the website of SEI instructors.

 

[Frosty]

"Funny" thing happened when I did my rescue course.Before I did my course my instructor and I did a couple of dives just as dive buddies.
We had also done around 12 dives together over 12 months.
Great fun diveing -the kind you grin about afterwards.
Even so he still required I demo my basic skills again at beginning of the course. I kinda gave him the "wacha talkin about williss?" look
Demoing the skills wasn't an issue but I asked him why He said the same as many here. Hes suprised how many divers can't do the most basic stuff.
If you can't self rescue at such a fundimental level then how have you got a hope in hadies of rescuing a panicked diver?

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Here is a link to the Leadership prep manual.
http://www.seidiving.org/clientuploads/Leadership Prep Manual 2008.pdf

It is correct you can start DM with 20 dives and DRAM rescue. Does not mean you will or be allowed to.

Would I allow someone to do that? Nope, no way. First of all I don't need a DM most of the time, my classes are small so they would not get much practice, and so why even bring it up?

The instructor has full discretion over this. In my experience I have seen instructors turn away DM students more often than not. Since most of the SEI instructors are independent and don't do this for a living we are not interested in turning out a bunch of DM's. There just is not the need for them so why push it. Master Diver is a much more popular and frankly useful cert for the majority of our students.

But as this thread is about rescue skills the reason we teach panicked diver, unconscious diver, supporting a diver at the surface and helping them get positive, and rescue tow while stripping gear is becasue these are the skills they are most likely to require as open water divers.

As for doing all skills on one dive, sure. Why not? These are not teaching dives. The checkouts are to evaluate that the student has had the training to dive independently and has all the skills necessary. They are supposed to be fully qualified to do this once the pool training is over. If we feel that doing all the skills on one dive is too much for them then we can't take them to open water. They are not ready. The philosophy behind our training is so foreign to some that they can't seem to grasp it. We do not train people to come back for more training.

In fact just the opposite. Every SEI OW diver is technically certified to what we refer to as the Sport Diving limit of 100 feet right out of the OW class. They are given all the tools, including rescue and emergency decompression table use, to do this. It is advised that they work up to the max depth but they are not required to come back for Advanced Level or specialty training should they choose not to.

I would dive to 100 ft with an SEI OW diver that has never taken the Advanced Level classes because I know they have the skills and knowledge to go there. They have been trained in gas management, dive planning, and would be able to save my butt if something happened. I know this because they would not have a card if they could not. Neutral buoyancy is required and taught.

I have OW students I've trained that are better in the water than some of the DM's I have seen at local training sites. Because they are required to be. I know a number of the SEI Instructors in the US. None that I know teach to the minimums. Everyone adds material to their courses and tests on it to suit their local conditions, their own experiences, and the stuff they feel their students should have. Not just because they want to but because they are required to by standards. Exceeding the standards is a standard.

---------- Post added August 19th, 2013 at 05:08 PM ----------

If SEI requires 10 minimum logged dives, then sure, we can include those in the comparison. Guesstimate $80-800 for that then.

So added costs to take rescue gets closer to each other but it seems SEI OW still provides more rescue training as part of the standard package.

Does SEI require first aid also?

General first aid and water related first aid is part of the OW course. Is it as in depth as say a Red Cross Course? No. Unless the instructor is a Red Cross, AHA, or DAN instructor and wants to make it part of it.

 

[ladyfishdvr]

I remember being taught the skills Jim is talking about by my NAUI instructor in my OW class and recently being surprised to find out its not included in PADI OW class. But then my Ow instructor taught me a bunch of stuff only done in divemaster classes also.

 

[AfroBoy]

I'm a freshly minted OW diver as of yesterday, so am reading this thread with quite a bit of interest. Given that we only learnt and practiced some basic rescue skills (sharing air, CESA, towing), what would people recommend as our next step?

There's a point here that I feel might be missing, and that is comfort and confidence in the water. If I were to encounter a serious underwater issue right now, I would like to think that I would be able to respond calmly. However, I feel that I really need more time underwater just practicing and getting used to the sensations, equipment, etc. until it becomes a bit more second nature.

I feel like I'm a bit of a catch-22. Do more dives to get more confidence and comfort, or go right into some rescue skills training? If I dive before having enough rescue knowledge and practice, I could end up in a situation which I can't cope with. If I do the rescue skills, it might be too much to take on before having solidified my current basic training.

Given the curriculum for the courses (I did my OW through PADI), and not wanting to debate the various merits or gaps in them, what would people recommend?

 

[ladyfishdvr]

Get more dives in and become familiar with the equipment and with diving. Build your confidence and comfort. Get your AOW then your rescue and take your time. Use what you have learned by diving and then build on those skills by adding rescue skills later. I was OW certified in May, got my AOW and will have 25 dives in this weekend. Next year I will take the rescue class. This year I am working on building diving skills. One step at a time. I want to master what I have learned and do it well before adding too many new skills to learn and not doing anything well.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I would agree. Get more dives in. Although I would tend to disagree with the AOW before rescue unless the AOW class has rescue skills built in to it. There are actually two dives with rescue skills in the AOW I offer. And there is also a one day workshop that is done to give the skills our OW course offers to those who do not feel ready or have the time to do the full rescue class. This most often taken by people who are prepping for my Advanced level.classes. Since what AOW does is give a diver access to dives with a greater degree of risk and potentially more serious consequences I don't like to issue those cards without the person knowing how to respond to those situations.

For jr divers I require rescue before any advanced training takes place. Kids who dive with parents need to know how to respond more so. There was a fourteen yr old not too long ago who lost his dad on a dive. It was a heart attack but the boy did not know how to bring his dad up from the bottom. I heard several reports that he was feeling it was his fault becase he could not assist him. Had he been able to at least get him to the surface he could take some consolation in that. The outcome might have been the same but it would be one less thing for him to deal with. And to those who say it's too much for a kid - BS. Every kid I train has to do this with me and a parent. It gives them a sense of security. Both parent and child. And size does not matter if shown properly. Takes one pool session to do.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I'm a freshly minted OW diver as of yesterday, so am reading this thread with quite a bit of interest. Given that we only learnt and practiced some basic rescue skills (sharing air, CESA, towing), what would people recommend as our next step?

There's a point here that I feel might be missing, and that is comfort and confidence in the water. If I were to encounter a serious underwater issue right now, I would like to think that I would be able to respond calmly. However, I feel that I really need more time underwater just practicing and getting used to the sensations, equipment, etc. until it becomes a bit more second nature.

I feel like I'm a bit of a catch-22. Do more dives to get more confidence and comfort, or go right into some rescue skills training? If I dive before having enough rescue knowledge and practice, I could end up in a situation which I can't cope with. If I do the rescue skills, it might be too much to take on before having solidified my current basic training.

Given the curriculum for the courses (I did my OW through PADI), and not wanting to debate the various merits or gaps in them, what would people recommend?

I'd recommend you go diving, get comfortable with what you were just taught, and set aside some time during each dive (perhaps at safety stop) to practice your basic skills until you can do them easily and comfortably without giving them any more thought than you'd put into walking.

Confidence comes from knowing you are competent with the things you've been trained to do. When you get completely comfortable with the simple things ... like mask clearing, or removal/replacement ... like holding your depth and position wherever and whenever you want ... like doing a "comfortable" controlled ascent with your buddy while sharing air ... then it's time for the next class.

Rescue is the only class besides OW that I think every diver really should take ... because it teaches you so much about how to recognize potential threats to your safety (both yours and other people's), it teaches you how to manage stress, and it teaches you how to anticipate a building situation so that you can take steps to avoid a bad outcome.

Beyond that class, training should be chosen to meet your specific goals ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[drbill]

The original Los Angeles County "OW" cert course I took back in the 60s covered essentially the current sequence of OW-AOW-Rescue. I can't imagine a student who has only completed what I consider to be a very basic OW course offered by most recreational diving agencies today to be really prepared.