are combination octo/power inflators BS?

[Firefyter]

Refer back to my post on the first page of this thread. Scubafanatic (hmm...nah, let it go..) makes my case perfectly for ignorance and fear being the root of most prejudices. :toilet_cl

 

[ZoCrowes255]

--how you might embolize on the way up if you hold your breath on the way up since you'll be taking the octo out of your mouth to vent your BC to avoid a runaway ascent?

--even if you remember to exhale properly, you'll be in a panic too, your air comsumption will be higher than ever, do your really want to have to keep taking the reg out of your mouth to vent your BC?

--how you'll be screwed if you buddy grabs your octo to breathe (in a panic a diver may go to your
octo, as he's pretty focused on grabbing any regulator he plainly sees bubbling, if that's what's in your mouth he'll key on that ...oops, there goes your control over your bouyancy......another runaway ascent......embolism.....and death!)

--if you're in a low vis/night/darkness scenario.....and the buddy runs out of air......he's not gonna waste time trying to guess where the heck you've stowed your octo......he's gonna find your body, then he's gonna find your head, then your face, then your mouth, then rip the reg out of your mouth.

If you're breathing your primary 2nd stage, he's gonna take that and you're gonna get stuck with the octo.....the one that's so short you can't turn your head, the one that breathes poorly, the one you have to keep taking out of your mouth to vent the BC.

If somehow you get him to use the octo, congradulations, you've got a panicky diver a foot away from you, who's in charge of your bouyancy.....no room to maneuver or swim...and God-forbid you're in a tight/constricted place where 2 divers can't fit though simultaneously....you can't swim one behind the other in line with your buddy using your octo...and you probably won't be able to do it even with your longer primary 2nd stage.


Karl

Wow you have obviously never used an AIR II.

1) Last time I checked whenever a regulator is out of your mouth you keep the airway open by blowing bubbles. If you were properly trained in the first place anytime that reg is out of your mouth it should instinctive to NEVER hold your breath. Also BCs equipped with AIR II's have (or are supposed to have) a right hand dump. I use it all the time.

2)Why would your backup regulator be in your mouth if you were not dealing with an OOA situation or fixing a problem with your primary? An OOA diver is going to go for the primary in your mouth.

3 and 4)You don't pass the AIR II you pass the primary. You're actually making an argument for an AIR II now.

You talk about the AIR II breathing poorly? It's the EXACT SAME unbalanced downstream design found in the Scubapro R190 and R390.

I've got about 300+ dives on mine in numerous conditions and have breathed off it just fine when it has been needed. It's fine to not want to use one and prefer a traditional octo. That's personal preference.

Why would I be in an overhead enviornment with an AIR II? Stop getting rec diving confused with tec diving.

 

[scubafanatic]

1) we arent talking technical divng here its recreactional, great a bungied necklace may be better to you but tome in a Rec situation it is more streamlined and not a risk.
2) You have obviously never used one , as you can still vent bc even with it in your mouth, and if you did take it out of your mouth PADI OW trianing teaches you to always make bubbles or did you unlearn that in tech training?
3) In a panic i hope my buddy does grab the reg out of my mouth that his one to breathe off, i will use the AIR2
4) When does an AIR2 breathe poorly, again you have never used one. It does restrict head movement but not so much that you cant function and complete dive.
5) Your buddy will only be a foot away from you, again your clueless, he will be on your primary which if you want can be a 5 or 7 foot hose so he can be miles away

You have obviously never used an AIR2 and are spouting crap.

If you dont know what your talking about then dont bother posting

PS I have about 450 dives on mine and it hasn't killed me yet!

......as I said, you are perfectly free to use the AIR2 in recreational diving, although I'm at a loss as to why one would prefer employing a 2nd rate solution instead of the configuration that works for ALL scenarios, 'tech' and 'rec'......and since I won't be diving with you, your choice won't bother me.

.....if you'd ever tanken any advanced dive training, you'd understand professional divers are heavily focused on team work and the buddy system......simply put, gear is configured under the assumption there's a fair chance it will actually have to be used to save a life......the AIR2 is a product who's mission statement is : octo's are a pain in the ass to carry, but it isn't politically-correct to dive without one, so here's the bare minimum octo we could build, so you can claim you have an alternate air source...and it actually might work under ideal conditions.

Use of the AIR2 is 'selfish', an item you buy thinking mainly of yourself...who emphasis is on convienience, not functionality under a wide range of conditions.

......again, I'm not getting into a pissing match with you....but you don't have to believe just me.....why don't you get on the WWW and look for advanced dive training classes...then look at the --required-- gear for the classes......and show me one case where an AIR2 is on the --required-- gear list.

The results of that search may give you the hint that you don't know quite as much about diving as you think you do.

Karl

 

[ReefGuy]

I guess we've heard from the dir corner. Typical.

......as I said, you are perfectly free to use the AIR2 in recreational diving, although I'm at a loss as to why one would prefer employing a 2nd rate solution instead of the configuration that works for ALL scenarios, 'tech' and 'rec'......and since I won't be diving with you, your choice won't bother me.

.....if you'd ever tanken any advanced dive training, you'd understand professional divers are heavily focused on team work and the buddy system......simply put, gear is configured under the assumption there's a fair chance it will actually have to be used to save a life......the AIR2 is a product who's mission statement is : octo's are a pain in the ass to carry, but it isn't politically-correct to dive without one, so here's the bare minimum octo we could build, so you can claim you have an alternate air source...and it actually might work under ideal conditions.

Use of the AIR2 is 'selfish', an item you buy thinking mainly of yourself...who emphasis is on convienience, not functionality under a wide range of conditions.

......again, I'm not getting into a pissing match with you....but you don't have to believe just me.....why don't you get on the WWW and look for advanced dive training classes...then look at the --required-- gear for the classes......and show me one case where an AIR2 is on the --required-- gear list.

The results of that search may give you the hint that you don't know quite as much about diving as you think you do.

Karl

 

[Firefyter]

Ok, just because it's not on the --required-- gear list doesn't necessarily mean it's forbidden.If you had actually used one of these instead of mindlessly following the herd and repeating rhetoric that you know nothing about, then your opinion might carry a little weight. The results of you actually trying one may give YOU a hint that you don't know as much about diving as you wish you did.

 

[Boogie711]

I guess we've heard from the dir corner. Typical.

Low blow and uncalled for. Say what you want about him, technical divers et al, but you brought up DIR, not him. The standards he's referring to can be found with TDI, IANTD, NACD, etc.

 

[scubafanatic]

Wow you have obviously never used an AIR II.

1) Last time I checked whenever a regulator is out of your mouth you keep the airway open by blowing bubbles. If you were properly trained in the first place anytime that reg is out of your mouth it should instinctive to NEVER hold your breath. Also BCs equipped with AIR II's have (or are supposed to have) a right hand dump. I use it all the time.

2)Why would your backup regulator be in your mouth if you were not dealing with an OOA situation or fixing a problem with your primary? An OOA diver is going to go for the primary in your mouth.

3 and 4)You don't pass the AIR II you pass the primary. You're actually making an argument for an AIR II now.

You talk about the AIR II breathing poorly? It's the EXACT SAME unbalanced downstream design found in the Scubapro R190 and R390.

I've got about 300+ dives on mine in numerous conditions and have breathed off it just fine when it has been needed. It's fine to not want to use one and prefer a traditional octo. That's personal preference.

Why would I be in an overhead enviornment with an AIR II? Stop getting rec diving confused with tec diving.

Hi Chris,

....I find it strange that, as an instructor, you find it inconceivable that a paniced, out of breath diver might --forget-- to exhale on ascent and embolize with a reg out of their mouth....divers sometimes forget their training in a crisis.

The AIR2 might be in your mouth if you happened to see the OOA diver heading your way, so you cleverly switched to your AIR2, expecting to give the primary to the OOA diver...only problem is that the diver-on-the-verge-of-drowning instinctively makes a grab for whatever is in your mouth that's bubbling....because he sees that's working right now!

Recreational diving teaches divers to pass the octo (not the primary) to the OOA diver, since most recreational diving is taught with 2 'traditional' octos......so it's very possible that one or both divers will believe the OOA diver should get the AIR2.....which highlights the problem when you combine different gear configurations, and different training practices into a crisis scenario.

I'm not confusing 'tech' diving with 'rec' diving.....who says 'rec' diving shouldn't have the same emphasis on safety as 'tech' diving ?

It's hard to believe, given the bulk/weight of even 'rec' scuba gear, that some 'rec' divers are so hell-bent to ditch one piddly hose off their configuration......like that makes a speck of a difference in terms of drag/weight in the whole scheme of things, yet definitely compromises diver safety.

Karl

 

[scubafanatic]

Ok, just because it's not on the --required-- gear list doesn't necessarily mean it's forbidden.If you had actually used one of these instead of mindlessly following the herd and repeating rhetoric that you know nothing about, then your opinion might carry a little weight. The results of you actually trying one may give YOU a hint that you don't know as much about diving as you wish you did.

........I speak from experience, having taken Advanced Nitrox/Deco Procedures in 04/03.....and a week of cave-diving class in Akumal, Mexico in 09/03.....both were taught per TDI standards.....so I've --actually-- done a bit of advanced training in the real world...which does not constitute "mindlessly following the herd and repeating rhetoric ".

....about the --required-- gear list....you will not be allowed to take any 'tech' classes unless you have a 7' ft. primary hose and a necklaced octo.....honestly I don't know if you could also add an AIR2 to all that or not.....you might be allowed to dive with it, I do know at a minimum it would be dead-weight, as you'd not be allowed to use it in training.

For sure it would be --forbidden-- to be used in class, and would most probably be --forbidden-- to even be taken into the water with you......the gear requiremnts for 'tech' classes establish both maximum and minimum gear specifications.....meaning you will dive with exactly the most appropriate gear, no more and no less....striking the proper balance between redundancy versus complexity. So if you don't see the AIR2 on the list as --required--it means it's not an extra option you can bring if you want either.

I've never seen a 'tech' diver with an AIR2, and I was never interested in an AIR2, so in my classes it wasn't a point of discussion as to if it would have to be removed from a diver's gear prior to class.

Karl

 

[HaoleDiver]

This is an interesting debate, because I think it highlights the best part about diving (in my opinion).
First of all, someone mentioned that "real divers" wouldnt use an Air2, because its not what "the professionals" use.
To that author, I ask what kind of car do you drive? Oh wait, it isn't a reinforced, custom built racing vehicle, with hybrid fuels, special wheels, and a matching fire-retardant jumpsuit? Why the heck not, its what the professionals use? When you play a sport, why on earth dont you use items donated to you by your sponsors? Why dont you use steroids, why dont you use the top-of-the-line, only available to stars models? After all, its what the professionals use?
I respect technical diving, and I respect the DIR crowd. If it works, more power to you. But you know who I respect most as a diver? The guy who has never been to the ocean, rents a set of gear, and goes out for the first time to explore. I respect the guy who tries his gear out and over time figures out what he likes. I respect the guy who lists the 8 reasons he likes his intergrated inflator/reg, and I respect the guy who says he'd never use it in a million dives because it isnt DIR. They're all "real divers."
Do you know why people die underwater? Its not because their Air2 fails. Its because they make an error, they panic, the push themselves too far for the wrong reasons. Do you know why people panic? Because they arent confident or comfortable.
Personally, I'd rather go diving with the guy who long ago figured out exactly what configuration makes him the most comfortable diver. I'd feel better with him than the guy who decided all his gear based on what someone else told him to do, because if it doesnt work for him, I dont care how DIR it is, it doesnt work for him.
I've only met 2 divers I dont respect in my life, and I dont respect them because they are careless underwater, and don't pay attention to their needs or the needs of those around them.
Other than that, I show them all respect. They're all exploring, they're all doing something amazing, I dont care if you're going 240 feet to get some trinkets to show off, or 30 feet to get a look at a wolf eel up close and personal.
I use an Air2, why? Because I used one before I bought my gear, and found that it made me feel better, and helped me respond to situations better, so I bought one for myself. Disagree with me? Awesome. As long as your method makes you a better diver, more power to you.

Thank you.

 

[ZoCrowes255]

Hi Chris,

....I find it strange that, as an instructor, you find it inconceivable that a paniced, out of breath diver might --forget-- to exhale on ascent and embolize with a reg out of their mouth....divers sometimes forget their training in a crisis.

The AIR2 might be in your mouth if you happened to see the OOA diver heading your way, so you cleverly switched to your AIR2, expecting to give the primary to the OOA diver...only problem is that the diver-on-the-verge-of-drowning instinctively makes a grab for whatever is in your mouth that's bubbling....because he sees that's working right now!

Recreational diving teaches divers to pass the octo (not the primary) to the OOA diver, since most recreational diving is taught with 2 'traditional' octos......so it's very possible that one or both divers will believe the OOA diver should get the AIR2.....which highlights the problem when you combine different gear configurations, and different training practices into a crisis scenario.

I'm not confusing 'tech' diving with 'rec' diving.....who says 'rec' diving shouldn't have the same emphasis on safety as 'tech' diving ?

It's hard to believe, given the bulk/weight of even 'rec' scuba gear, that some 'rec' divers are so hell-bent to ditch one piddly hose off their configuration......like that makes a speck of a difference in terms of drag/weight in the whole scheme of things, yet definitely compromises diver safety.

Karl

Once again if an AIR II is on a PROPERLY equipped BC there is no need for it to be taken out of your mouth to vent air. Any BC that has an octo/power inflator on it NEEDS to have a right hand pull dump. If a diver is properly trained they learn that their is more than way to safely vent air out of their BCs.

1) I am not expecting them to take my AIR II I pass my primary regulator. That is what I was taught in my O/W Class back in 1996 and it is what I have been exposed to my entire diving career. I just had a student come back from Bora Bora where he did his openwater dives and the instructor down there was shocked that I taught him to pass the primary. He explained the reasoning behind it to his certifying instructor and the certifying instructor could see his POV.

2) Not all recreational instructors teach "pass the octo." SSI MANDATES passing the primary because it works with any gear configuration and NAUI leaves it up to their Instructors. If you are going to be diving an AIR II you need to pass the primary.

The AIR II was NOT designed to be passed to an OOA diver. I don't even like calling the backup regulator an "octo." It's YOUR backup. I believe that is something we can agree on.

3) There are MANY good diving practices that apply to both worlds such as a big emphasis on buoyancy and trim however everything required in tech diving is not needed for recreational diving and not everything that is acceptable in recreational diving is acceptable for tech diving. If you would like to use an AIR II on a 60 foot reef dive that's your own discretion. If you would like to use a 7 or 5 foot primary with a bungied backup that is also your choice. The only "right" choice for that is the one you are the most comfortable in. I don't honestly think you can compare the two side by side because it's comparing apples to grapefruits. They are entirely seperate beasts. I have started working with Public Safety Scuba Divers (PSSD) and a Dive Rescue instructor. I would have to be a fool to think that everything that works with PSSD is going to work to be optimal for my rec students. I don't think a 60 foot reef diver needs a FFM, vulcanized rubber drysuit etc. They just need to be comfortable in the water. If they aren't comfortable then they should not be in the water.

I agree with you a lot of recreational gear is not the most well designed in the world. A lot of it is meant to appeal to the person based on looks alone and functionality be damned. However there is also a lot of quality out there. It's up to the consumer to decide what they like and don't like.

On edit: I would just like to add that a lot of things that come from the tec crowd that I personally have picked up on. I have been diving Jet fins since I was 11 years old. When I saw there was a better alternative than the rubber strap I went for it. LOVE my spring straps (now on every set of fins I own.) I have also never liked consoles I found them to be too bulky. When I saw a SPG on a boltsnap I immediatly picked up on that too. I'm an openminded person so when I see something that is new or different that can be beneficial to me I give it a try. I have tried a BP/Wings and a long hose setup. I felt it was a good system but I saw no reason for me to switch to it as an openwater diver. I'm not saying it's better or worse just not for me. I think I have an advantage in my age. I'm 20 years old and I've become a pro while the industry is going through some big changes. The global community that we now have allows for ideas to be spread very quickly and I love it.

This will be probably be my last msg on this thread because I leave for Nassau tomorrow.