Are Cert/Currency requirements too lenient?

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Well said, Dale.

I think it's important to point out that most agencies caveat their training with a statement to the effect: "You are now certified to dive under the same circumstances/environment that you were trained in.". This is important because it's the rock solid way of telling the diver he/she shouldn't go diving in situations that they weren't trained for.

Q- How many divers go willy nilly and dive beyond their training anyway?

A- A lot.

Nothing to do with the training. Nothing to do with the instructor. Nothing to do with the agency.

Cheers,

Bill
 
Is there anyone else out there who believes that it is far too easy to get and maintain an OW certification? One or two weekends in a quarry and you are certified to dive in all sorts of conditions!d "I got me c-card in Jamaica in the winter, now I want to dive the 38 degree waters of the great lakes in the late spring."... snipped

I usually avoid these conversations but there is a fallacy in your argument.

An OW graduate from us and all the other major agencies has been told that his/her certification covers them to dive in conditions similar to those in which they trained.

I fully understand that this may not be well policed but there is no foolproof system... because of greater fools; however, if someone decides to dive beyond their experience level, training, comfort zone, the responsibility needs to be placed at the diver's feet not the agency through which training was delivered.
 
Well said, Dale.
I think it's important to point out that most agencies caveat their training with a statement to the effect: "You are now certified to dive under the same circumstances/environment that you were trained in.". This is important because it's the rock solid way of telling the diver he/she shouldn't go diving in situations that they weren't trained for.

Q- How many divers go willy nilly and dive beyond their training anyway?
A- A lot.
Nothing to do with the training. Nothing to do with the instructor. Nothing to do with the agency.

Of course and well said.
Diving beyond training and certification is a fact of life in Scuba, with the limit generally set by the buddy with the smaller ego. Currently the (US) scuba industry enjoys one of the least regulated activities and I for one would like to see it stay that way. Today, the dive related insurance companies and the agencies control the direction diving takes and given the opportunity, state and federal will add requirements and regulations making more difficult on all of us.

We need to police ourselves by encouraging safe diving behavior and continuing education and training. Review the histories of instant buddies and taking the time to dive with new divers. Discourage ego driven, dangerous dives and insure our sport is safe and fun for all who love it.
 
Perhaps this is related (perhaps not), but I was recently involved in a discussion that explored the idea that just because a diver (or group of divers) presents a C-card to "x" level doesn't mean that they can be trusted to dive at a certain level of competence or even possess a particular skill set, requiring a dive operator to to a quick skill assessment at the start of customer-provider relationship.

I'm not at all saying that I think c-cards should be re-certified every 3 years (the requirement for my paramedic certification), and I agree with the previous poster that the lack of oppressive oversight by government agencies is a good thing, but it does seem that a system in which certifications can be issued with no long term guarantee of skills places diving providers in a potential position of increased liability (regardless of whether they make you sign a release) and divers themselves in a position of blissfully ignorant jeopardy and might need to be tweaked.

It just seems a C-card should mean more than it has come to. Sure, your card is your ticket to go out there and learn how to be a good, safe diver but unfortunately, not everyone treats it as such.
 
In Quebec, we do have this kind of control due to the constantly harsh cold conditions in the St-Lawrence... Temp is around hi-30's to low-40's even in summer. So, if you want to dive anywhere in the province and if you want to rent gear or buy air, you need both your c-card and your FQAS card, which is only good for 3 years.
So, travelers can't come to your area, rent air and dive there?

If government control/licensing of diving comes to America, my suspicion is that it will result in a LOT less divers. Thinking about it now - frankly, I'm surprised that the life-controlling morons in American state and federal government have not latched on to this as yet another way to impose government tyranny on us all. I think it's just a matter of time....
 
Given the 2 extremes of government over site vs no certification required I would rather go for no cert required
 
FireDiver443:
it does seem that a system in which certifications can be issued with no long term guarantee of skills places diving providers in a potential position of increased liability

No long term guarantee? Hell, there's no guarantee the diver ever had any skills.
 
So, travelers can't come to your area, rent air and dive there?

Of course anyone can, but you need to get a temporary card first. All you have to do is show that you have already dived in cold water at least once and then they give you a card that is good for 1 month.
 
disclaimer:
the following may not be true precisely everywhere, what with advent of graduated licenses in some areas, but it is certainly true in some jurisdictions, and until graduated licenses came along, was true pretty much everywhere in America. It's still true enough in many areas to make the point.


Consider:

A brand new licensed driver can go out and fire up a 30' RV and tow a 20' boat behind it, with no special training, no special license, no special ANYTHING whatsoever. Such a driver puts a lot more people at risk and is much more likely to injure himself, or others, or cause significant property damage than a newly certified diver.

However, if the same driver wants to ride a small 250cc motorcycle, a vehicle where, for the most part, the only one who is going to get hurt if he wrecks is himself, well - now you're talking special license and special fee and special safety equipment in many jurisdictions.

A person driving a 30' RV is not required to take any class or have any special training or license whatsoever. Nothing. Notta. Zilch!!

What sense does this make?? None.

However, it is clearly in the interest of the RV industry to prevent any laws or requirements for trained and safe RV drivers. God forbid grandpa can't go driving around America raising holy hell with his RV - and screw anyone foolish enough to be standing on the sidewalk when he comes roarin' by. Yes, they roar by on the sidewalk, the 40mph speeds are reserved for the road, when I'm driving behind them.

Same for people pulling big-assed boats and trailers. No special license or training required. Why?? It would hurt the industry.

If the SCUBA industry were smart, it would be on top of this issue and keep itself fully prepared to prevent lawmaking with with respect to the dive industry. Make a strong case for self regulation and be prepared with it for when the time comes.

If nothing else - at least one gun lobby writer thinks the SCUBA industry has a good model.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0429/p09s02-coop.html:
What the gun industry can learn from scuba divers
Private regulation is a win-win, so it should certify gun owners

By Peter A. Gudmundsson - from the April 29, 2008 edition

Dallas - The Supreme Court will issue a major interpretation of the Second Amendment in coming weeks. But even as both sides in the gun debate await the D.C. v. Heller ruling, the gun industry should set its sights on a different target: certification.

It should develop and adopt a private licensing and certification program fashioned on the highly successful scuba diving industry model to provide safety, legal, and marksmanship training to all gun owners and users. Such a private mandate will ensure a base of safer and more knowledgeable gun users and develop a fresh and lucrative revenue source for the whole industry.

For decades, the debate on gun control in America has been defined by polar opposite political positions. On the left, gun ownership abolitionists seek the intervention of government to severely restrict or outlaw firearms possession and use. With strong support among coastal urban populations and high-income elites, these gun-control advocates appeal to the inherent evil of gun violence as proof of the desirability of severely restricting access to guns. Their argument is moralistic and practical, if altogether naive given the millions of firearms already present in American homes – and the ease of obtaining guns for criminal purposes.

On the other side, defiant gun owners and libertarians cite constitutional justification – and anachronistic biblical and patriotic frontier mythological imagery – to bolster their possession of an immutable right to "keep and bear arms." With such a political impasse of instinctive and deep mistrust, there is no wonder that little progress had been made in making our homes, streets, and fields safer from the real dangers of legal and illegal firearms use. The core of this problem derives from the absolutist nature of both camps. It is simple "No restrictions" versus "complete regulation or abolition."

Enter the scuba model. For decades, the international Scuba diving community has required all divers to obtain certifications from one of two private associations, the National Association of Underwater Instructors and the Professional Association of Diving Instructors. No diver may fill their tanks or take part in recreational or professional diving trips without first obtaining a certification card from one of these private organizations. For their part, dive shops and schools generate significant portions of their revenue from the tuition that would-be divers pay to obtain their certifications at basic to advanced levels. Undergoing class-room instruction, pool lessons, and "open water" testing, graduates of these programs are thoroughly trained in all aspects of safety and proper procedure in what would otherwise be an inherently dangerous pastime.

The gun industry, perhaps led by the National Rifle Association, should develop a curriculum of training and education leading to firearms certification." All retailers of guns and or ammunition would require the provision of such private certification by the consumer before consenting to the sale of any of those items. Background checks should be included in the certification process as well as periodic refresher courses. The federal and state governments would not be involved. Records of gun ownership would be available to government or law-enforcement officials only with the written consent of the certified owner or a warrant provided by proper authority. Nonconsenting retailers would be "blackballed" by industry leaders and cut off from supplies of goods and services.

The firearms industry has an unprecedented opportunity to show leadership and creativity at this time when the debate is otherwise deadlocked. More safety and additional revenue for gun ranges and stores makes for a healthier industry that will have better success at attracting new sportsmen and customers.
 
I would never be a proponent of Diver Police like FQAS. What are they going to do, check the depth and bottom timer when a diver surfaces? That would be the alternative to the system we have today.

The agencies do have recommended depth limits for OW, AOW and Deep recreational diving. Every agency clearly specifies the limits of training and clearly states that divers should stay within those limits. But there is nobody in charge of policing the water to be certain these limits aren't violated. Nor should there be.

What we have is a system where Darwin's Theory dominates. That's fine with me. I understand that if I mess up I can/will die.

Richard

I never said I agreed with the existence of the FQAS! ;)

But their role isn't to police the waters. If an OW diver on his 6th dive decides to go to 200ft on air, no one's ever gonna stop him! The only reason they exist is to make sure somebody who haven't dived for years has a hard time renting his gear or getting some air. AND of course, they charge a couple bucks every 3 years for these cards... :banghead:
 

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