Are apollo bio fins really the best fins in the world?

[jar546]

Has anyone ever noticed that the "speed in MPH" is ranged from 1.7 to 2.2 miles per hour in these reports. The difference is so small i can not see how this would effect the real world. The graph makes it look like the difference between 1.8 mph to 2.0 mph is huge. I would think it is not.

I would also think a diver can change his performance to increase or decrease the mph in the test the Scuba Diver Magazine test. Are these test reproducible?

I had the Apollo and ScubaPro Twin Jet Max. I did not see a significant difference.

The numbers are relevant. It is still over a 30% increase in speed from 1.7 to 2.2

So OK, I have these fins and I love them. Well, I don't love them in heavy current and depending on what type of diving you do, they may not be for you. Overall, they are very comfortable and work extremely well. I can swim rather fast if I need to but how often is that needed? Maybe after taking pictures and trying to catch up with the rest of the group on a drift dive? Anyway, you are limited on the kicks you can use with these fins and they are a little too heavy for travel. Otherwise, I love them.

 

[joel smith]

I believe this is a technique issue....one of the traits many 'New" divers like about split fins like the apollos, is that the split blades are so floppy, that any kind of kicking will push you forward....

With the quattro, and much more with a jet fin, there is a certain precise series of muscle contractions and coordinations that will make an efficient propulsive reaction for the diver who is putting out work effort- muscle work. Kicking incorrectly with these fins will cause massive inefficiency, and your muscles will tire when they should not have, if your muscles were "firing in the right order", and the shape of your kick stroke was correct for the fin.

You can make terrible mistakes with the split fins, and still move through the water without much percieved effort. [ see Diver with skills that split fins were created for...If you swim like this, GET HELP! - YouTube ] ..this can be horifying for divers like myself to watch , which is why many of us are inclined to offer asistance in correcting the issue.

With the right technique, and with a little weekly fitness for dive muscles maintained, the splits should be a very POOR performing fin, compared to the ones designed to be used correctly. The DiveR freediving fins would be another example of a fin that "could not" be used by a diver with bad kicking technique. When used correctly, it is so effortless to kick with them you feel more like a big sailfish gliding along with zero effort, next to a split fin diver that appears to move through the water more like and inflated puffer fish

WOW someone ask for an opinion , I gave mine and now I have been diagnosed with ,technique issues, I can use either fin but the appolo is an excelent fin my choice. Im pretty sure I dont have a finning problem but if I do ill find a finning expert for assistence. Lets try and just anwser the question ask.

 

[danvolker]

WOW someone ask for an opinion , I gave mine and now I have been diagnosed with ,technique issues, I can use either fin but the appolo is an excelent fin my choice. Im pretty sure I dont have a finning problem but if I do ill find a finning expert for assistence. Lets try and just anwser the question ask.

Joel, I was not trying to be destructive with this suggestion....if we were talking about cyclists and their pedal strokes, even category 3 riders that can average 25 miles per hour for an hour by themselves, often are told by pros or coaches that they could be faster or more efficient, if they changed their pedal stroke....

There is virtually zero emphasis in the scuba training agencies on optimal kicking mechanics....they "barely" explain what a flutter kick is, and rarely try to improve on a new diver's flutter kick, if they are any where near mediocre with it....and I believe this is what drives the majority of divers to split fins like the Apollo.

Peak Bouyancy skills are the new hot movement in instruction, since GUE trotted out Fundies a couple of years ago....But so far none of the major agencies are working with all the potential adjustments you can make to a flutter kick, to essentially "shift gears" with a good pair of fins....BY altering the angle and amplitude of the kick, you can effectively change gearing..and this is much more exagerated with long bladed freedive fins like the DiveR's.
Since no one teaches this, for you to be aware of this, would put you in a very tiny minority ... and this is why I did not feel this suggestion would be offensive..... and the whole gear changing thing pretty much will not work with splits, or barely so...

 

[danvolker]

Sometimes I feel like no one else on Scubaboard cares about the mechanics of the optimal kicking technique--the angle of the kick, the amplitude, and the many ways you can change the shape of the kick stroke, to change the torque or the efficiency, or even to switch which muscles are being worked so you can rest one set while another does a little work....The reason I feel this way is that I will get blown away by the direction a fin thread goes in, I'll post my take on it, and then the thread dies an almost instant death....

How about some of you guys tell me why optimal kicking stroke mechanics and propulsive efficiency are not as important as Peak Bouyancy skills or other advanced tweaks a diver could work on ? If it is just coming down to it sounding like my opinion with nothing to back this up, say so here, and if this is a consensus, I will start working on a video that shows precisely each part of the mechanics I am talking about, and the effects on the diver's propulsion and efficiency. I could pull in some GUE instructors, as well as some experts in "alternative" fin systems, like Bob Evans ( or one of his Force Fins team), a world class freediver, a Navy Seal, and several others that have perfected a specific type of underwater traveling.

Reactions?

 

[drbill]

I was a bit uncertain when I purchased my Bio Fins about 9 years ago. I had been using US Divers Blades which gave me plenty of power. I was very pleasantly surprised by the Bio Fins. Attached to my tree trunk German legs, they were plenty powerful, greatly diminished the frequency of leg cramps, and were a real joy. The only downside I have experienced is the weight. I travel with my old Blades.

 

[scubafanatic]

I own 4 pairs of the Apollos (3 regular and 1 "XT" version) and I've been VERY happy with them under all diving conditions. If you want a pretty stiff feel, buy the "XT" version, otherwise I actually prefer the regular version. They are fairly heavy (being 100% natural rubber) and will sink to the bottom (negatively bouyant) if you drop one. (I've never lost one yet though). Also get the ones with the stainless steel straps, money well spent! They would not be considered 'appropriate' for 'tech' diving, but for any level of recreational diving, I think they're the best fin.

 

[BDSC]

If it is just coming down to it sounding like my opinion with nothing to back this up, say so here, and if this is a consensus, I will start working on a video that shows precisely each part of the mechanics I am talking about, and the effects on the diver's propulsion and efficiency. I could pull in some GUE instructors, as well as some experts in "alternative" fin systems, like Bob Evans ( or one of his Force Fins team), a world class freediver, a Navy Seal, and several others that have perfected a specific type of underwater traveling.

Reactions?

Well, until you provide some sort of "proof", what you are saying is really nothing more than your opinion just like all the other opinions expressed here. So I for one would be glad to view a video like what you are talking about. If done properly, I think it could be quite useful.

 

[DeepSeaExplorer]

Sometimes I feel like no one else on Scubaboard cares about the mechanics of the optimal kicking technique... Reactions?

I agree with you...

But, most divers don't care - and that's okay, really. As Jim pointed out, who needs to swim fast anyway. For most, that's the correct answer. 99% of divers can get by with the worst performing fin and be happy. Everyone has a different level of interest in the hobby. It's only when you get interested in more advanced diving that fin performance can become an issue.

It's the same in martial arts. Some are content with sloppy technique. They don't care and they're having fun, so more power to them. While others are more technical and want to execute every technique perfectly. Eventually, the sluggers become more technical or quit. You see, you have to be technical to be able to learn to do the cool stuff. Some eventually figure that out and convert, but most quit before they ever get to that decision point.

To be good at martial arts you have to be a technican because every technique has an exact right way to execute it, consequently every other way is wrong. That's the midset, right or wrong. Not only that, the instructor will yell at you if you aren't doing it exactly right. A Martial Arts instructor would never say, that's okay go ahead and do it your way if it's more comfortable for you. :cool2:

That's the way I approach swimming because it's the same type of repetitive physical activity. In martial arts, speed, power (and accuracy) come from correct technique and repetition. There's a saying, that a techique is not yours until you've done it correctly 1,000 times. So with that background, for me there is definitely only one right way to execute each type of kick, which results in the most efficiency and the most power. Do you need that level of perfection on every dive, no. But, when you're carrying 4 tanks and trying to swim against the flow in a cave every little bit helps.

It's the same with anything. If you don't attempt to improve your technique, you will hold yourself back. If you are only interested in progressing to a certain point, that's fine. But, those with no interest in improving shouldn't try to talk others down to their level, which is what the whole split fin debate becomes when someone says use a split fin because it easier.

 

[Couv]

Sometimes I feel like no one else on Scubaboard cares about the mechanics of the optimal kicking technique--the angle of the kick, the amplitude, and the many ways you can change the shape of the kick stroke, to change the torque or the efficiency, or even to switch which muscles are being worked so you can rest one set while another does a little work....The reason I feel this way is that I will get blown away by the direction a fin thread goes in, I'll post my take on it, and then the thread dies an almost instant death....

How about some of you guys tell me why optimal kicking stroke mechanics and propulsive efficiency are not as important as Peak Bouyancy skills or other advanced tweaks a diver could work on ? If it is just coming down to it sounding like my opinion with nothing to back this up, say so here, and if this is a consensus, I will start working on a video that shows precisely each part of the mechanics I am talking about, and the effects on the diver's propulsion and efficiency. I could pull in some GUE instructors, as well as some experts in "alternative" fin systems, like Bob Evans ( or one of his Force Fins team), a world class freediver, a Navy Seal, and several others that have perfected a specific type of underwater traveling.

Reactions?

Apollogies to the OP for straying further.

Dan, I learned to dive when skin diving played a much larger role in a SCUBA course than it does today. Our instructor had us push on the side of the pool until the entire class could demonstrate proper fin technique. When I first became an instructor, I taught the same way, but I later gave in to the "whatever works for you-this is a family sport" method of teaching. After a while I realized how big a mistake that was and returned to teaching the basics first. (Retired from teaching now.)

I'm looking forward to seeing your videos; I'm sure I'm not alone. Please keep us posted.

Couv

 

[danvolker]

My plan at present is to begin the prep work for the video on OPTIMAL FINNING TECHNIQUES and matching Kick to Fin.....at the DEMA Show next week..... I will be talking to several of the Fin manufactures about getting them involved in this, but telling them upfront that there will be no bias....but they do have the ability to have an "expert
with their fin, show the proper techniques for their specific fin....this DOES change from fin to fin, enormously...something complettely lacking in dive agency training and propaganda. I expect Bob Evans of Force Fin will cooperate, I expect Apollo ot refuse, and that's fine, I will easily get a pair , I will talk to scubapro and see if they will cooperate--though with them it would be a GUE instructor doing the specifics for that fin....I will talk to DiveR and to Cressi, I will try to get a meet regarding the Quatros and a few other major paddle fins.

One thing I may film is taking a non-diver, non-snorkeler with no fin skills, and putting each pair of fins on them--then shoot the mechanics and resultant efficiency of their propulsion....this will be a cyclist or triathlete with good muscle fitness and coordination, but zero skill with any fin when they start this.

Then, after they are shown the proper mechanics by an expert, and practiced for 15 minutes or so, shoot them again....the video would certainly be showing the expert doing the fin technique for the non-diver, and the result for them.

A final part of the dive will be a group dive, with each of the fins tested present on an "expert", and the team leader will be on a Gavin scooter with the props set to a slow forward speed, one that should be a "middle" speed for divers in general, and the group will follow this pace. Afterward, we can look at a comparison of the way each fin assists the diver in maintaining exactly this pace.....notably, there will be lots of going from the offshore fingers ( extreme east side of north-south trending reef-line) across the crown to the extreme west side to the inshore ledge.....In Palm Beach, many divers like beginning on the fingers at 90 feet or so, staying there for 5 to 10 minutes, then swimming UP the face of the outer reef wall --up onto the crown at about 45 to 50 feet deep, and then swimming West across the crown to the inshore ledge....the side current ( Gulf stream drift) makes Apollo fins non-functional in my experience having to drag so many split fins users along here, so they could make it to the inshore ledge. The fact that my fins not only make it easy for me to get there, but even drag a split fin wearing diver across current as well, should indicate a big difference between fin quality exists. But, this "could be" a technique issue also, as many slit fin wearers have never been told they are kicking incorrectly, and never thought about how they might improve on this.

How does this sound so far ?