APEKS tek3 creep

[LanceRiley]

Did a few more tests. I realize i coudnt fully depressurize the regs.

Close tank, purged the reg.


But the creep remains. 0.30 bar in 1 hr. Woudnt lock up

Ip would show 2-3bars left.

But the din ring is soft to turn and it would release the 1st stage with a soft pop.

Is this ok?

 

[Mobulai]

But the creep remains. 0.30 bar in 1 hr. Woudnt lock up

Ip would show 2-3bars left.

I’m confused

What’s the 2-3 bar left case happening at?

What’s the tank pressure where you get 0.3bar creep at? What’s happening in the 1st 1-5mins?
Can you also test it overnight (charge/pressurize then close the tank after)

Also the pop sounds bad.. as if it was creating a vacuum (idk how)

 

[LanceRiley]

2-3bar is when i close the tank and purge the 2nd stage. The ip would not fully go to zero bar. So there is still 2-3 bar in the system. When i remove the 1st stage by turning the din ring. It turns softly but has a soft pop when i remove the 1st stage from the tank. The popping sounds like when you smack your lips. Not really a big deal. But with the present setup. That it doesnt fully purge empty, is this ok?

Tank pressure is about 190bar. I fill my own tanks. I started all this at 200 bar

 

[Mobulai]

2-3bar is when i close the tank and purge the 2nd stage. The ip would not fully go to zero bar. So there is still 2-3 bar in the system. When i remove the 1st stage by turning the din ring. It turns softly but has a soft pop when i remove the 1st stage from the tank. The popping sounds like when you smack your lips. Not really a big deal. But with the present setup. That it doesnt fully purge empty, is this ok?

Tank pressure is about 190bar. I fill my own tanks. I started all this at 200 bar

Sounds like it be that the reg isn’t full depressurized — not really ok in my book
Breathe it down completely (or double purge)

 

[LanceRiley]

Sounds like it be that the reg isn’t full depressurized — not really ok in my book
Breathe it down completely (or double purge)

thats just it …. i presss and depress or hold down the purge it doesnt purge fully. breathe down yeah that can be done

other than that. everything works fine…

aside from the 1st stage creep.

set IP 9.25 creeps to 9.56 in an hr. maybe 9.65 in 1.5hrs.

ive never seen this Non lockup. but the creep is also takes very long. never tested more than 10mins to settle a creep

 

[Mobulai]

set IP 9.25 creeps to 9.56 in an hr. maybe 9.65 in 1.5hrs

I’d wait and test overnight before calling it a “full creep”, it can be a drift (eventually locks up — still not good, but it seals)

I have a few theories on why either is happening but it’s so tough to pin down
This post below indicates a methodology for identifying it, but before you jump in I wanna add one more: wrong Shore for oring in balanced chamber might be slowing things down from locking up.

You’ll have to cross check the schematics for the tek3 and possibly inspect under a microscope/loupe to pin down the problem ; but for the sake of your sanity first check IP overnight if it does stabilize at a number (again tank closed)
If you wake uo and find it at 0 then you really have a creep (and a HP leak)

IP creep has been covered in multiple threads on Scubaboard.
How to restore a Piston Regulator that has IP creep
How to Restore a Knife Edge Piston

Usually, it's pistons that get the blame. Either a faulty seat
View attachment 590313
or a nick in the piston knife edge
View attachment 584756
allows high pressure (tank) air to leak into the Intermediate Pressure compartment, and we see IP creep on the gauge.

But sometimes, even a diaphragm can be afflicted.
And usually, it's the same culprits: a scratch in the movable part, or a nick in the fixed part.
Some diaphragms (Mares, Poseidon) use a movable dome or cone-shaped poppet that mates with a fixed seat, while others (Scubapro, Aqualung) use a movable flat seat that mates to a volcano orifice.
Either way, if you can replace or polish the movable part that is flawed, problem solved.
Here, a Poseidon cone (which they call a valve piston) has a sandblasting groove from tank rust that slipped past the sintered metal filter, causing IP creep. A quick polish in a drill motor (as long as the drill chuck teeth don't put a nick in the shaft) and things seal right up.
View attachment 590330
View attachment 590331

When the volcano is scratched by a ham-fisted technician, or becomes corroded, it can occasionally be a challenge to reach. The popular Conshelf first stage has its volcano buried deep in the bore of the reg body, and can be a challenge to polish. The volcano cannot be replaced.
View attachment 584757
View attachment 584758
View attachment 590329

Other regs have a removable volcano orifice. Wrapping a pencil in Micromesh and buffing out a nick is a much simpler task when you can hold the volcano in your fingers.
View attachment 590328

But what happens when you have IP creep and you replace the movable part; you polish the part that it mates with; you replace the orings...and it STILL creeps?
Well, let's look at where a diaphragm reg seals:

Courtesy of the Cressi website, here's a sealed diaphragm with a removable volcano.
View attachment 584755
There are three areas where an IP creep problem might lie:
#2, we have just discussed: the seal between the seat and whatever component it mates with. Here, we see a seat (in blue) and a volcano orifice just below it. This valve is open.
#1 is the seal between the movable seat and the reg body, via the balance chamber. This seal only applies to a balanced diaphragm, with a hole in the middle of the poppet. A leak at this seal allows high pressure air to travel up the bore of the poppet, bypassing the seat, and leak into the Intermediate Pressure chamber. If your reg is unbalanced, there's no hole in the movable part, and this area can't leak. That applies to few regulators these days, like some old Dacors and the old Poseidon 300. Most diaphragm regs today are balanced, and this area is a potential leak point.
#3 is the removable seat or removable volcano, depending upon the brand. If you have a fixed volcano, then again there's no oring seal to leak at this level, either.
In other words, if you had an old Dacor unbalanced diaphragm with a fixed volcano, there was only one place to leak! You either replaced the seat or polished the volcano deep inside and fixed the problem, or you bought a new reg because you couldn't polish out a ding in the volcano.
But most high-end diaphragms have removable volcanoes, and a seal here is key.

As the technology got more sophisticated, regs've gotten more complex. The areas where problems arise have multiplied.
And that's what happened to me.

See next post...

 

[LanceRiley]

I’d wait and test overnight before calling it a “full creep”, it can be a drift (eventually locks up — still not good, but it seals)

I have a few theories on why either is happening but it’s so tough to pin down
This post below indicates a methodology for identifying it, but before you jump in I wanna add one more: wrong Shore for oring in balanced chamber might be slowing things down from locking up.

You’ll have to cross check the schematics for the tek3 and possibly inspect under a microscope/loupe to pin down the problem ; but for the sake of your sanity first check IP overnight if it does stabilize at a number (again tank closed)
If you wake uo and find it at 0 then you really have a creep (and a HP leak)

Ok as fore the shore problem…. Erm this is a bit hard to diagnose. Its an apeks 1st stage kit. But could be. But theres just like 3 orings and the seat that basically controls the 1st stage .

Ok will try IP for 24hours. With TANK Close. Overnight. But what does this do? IP most definitely wont go up. (No higher pressure supply). Theres no exit for the pressure? Din o rings will hold everything in.?

 

[Mobulai]

Ok will try IP for 24hours. With TANK Close. Overnight. But what does this do? IP most definitely wont go up. (No higher pressure supply). Theres no exit for the pressure? Din o rings will hold everything in.?

The spg hose stores just a bit of HP supply that if there’s a IP creep, once more IP is “demanded” it would provide
If you do it with tank open overnight and you have a creep you’ll end up with an empty tank
If there’s no creep, you should wake up to an SPG that still reads 190bar
But you still have a case of the “drift”

For the orings, and again I’m not familiar with the Apeks kits, sometimes you have 2 orings that have the same size and different shore (eg in SP, the HP piston stem and the DIN backing oring — inside not outside; or something like that I can’t remember exactly but it happens)
And you’d have to basically feel which is the softer and which is the stiffer one bu finger basically

A softer (lower shore) will work well for HP seals, but less so in dynamic setting as t will provide higher friction.. just a thought at one of the things that can go wrong

 

[LanceRiley]

The spg hose stores just a bit of HP supply that if there’s a IP creep, once more IP is “demanded” it would provide
If you do it with tank open overnight and you have a creep you’ll end up with an empty tank
If there’s no creep, you should wake up to an SPG that still reads 190bar

For the orings, and again I’m not familiar with the Apeks kits, sometimes you have 2 orings that have the same size and different shore (eg in SP, the HP piston stem and the DIN backing oring — inside not outside; or something like that I can’t remember exactly but it happens)
And you’d have to basically feel which is the softer and which is the stiffer one bu finger basically

A softer (lower shore) will work well for HP seals, but less so in dynamic setting as t will provide higher friction.. just a thought at one of the things that can go wrong

Oh i get it. So you suspect leak somewhere else in the regulator system. I dont have an sog on this set as its the right post of my doubles. Maybe i should do a bubble check on a tub. But ill still try the overnight w an spg but it adds another hose

Arent all the o rings in 1st stage shore90? I remember my instructor saying… shore 90 if high presssure.

And in my area thres a local oring supplier, which some unscrupulous tech often buy from. Snd theyre mostly shore 70

But i use the original apeks

 

[Mobulai]

Oh i get it. So you suspect leak somewhere else in the regulator system. I dont have an sog on this set as its the right post of my doubles. Maybe i should do a bubble check on a tub. But ill still try the overnight w an spg but it adds another hose

Arent all the o rings in 1st stage shore90? I remember my instructor saying… shore 90 if high presssure.

And in my area thres a local oring supplier, which some unscrupulous tech often buy from. Snd theyre mostly shore 70

But i use the original apeks

I’m sure you can borrow the spg of your left post

In a 1st stage there’s a HP section (before HP seat) and LP after
For eg in a Piston reg The piston head would use a 70sh, but the piston stem a 90sh for example

A bubble check might indicate a LP or HP leak, but that’s not necessarily the creep cause (ok probably yes)
But what I meant by drift is: it can just be taking its time to fully seat and lockup, not performing as it should, but no actual leak
(Maybe even the seat hasn’t taken a set yet — it was cycled right?)

You have to forgive me I’m approaching the limit of my knowledge/experience here — but I have nothing against making (partially) educated guesses
Maybe an actual Apeks user can step in and help out