AOW vs GUE Fundamentals

[CAPTAIN SINBAD]

In my AOW I was expected to learn deep diving in one dive. This was a dive in which I was taken to 75 feet and was given a card that authorized me to dive to 130 feet. I never felt narcosis during training since we were at 75 feet but when I attempted a dive below 100 feet on my own then I realized what they mean by nitrogen narcossis.

In my "Wreck" specialty I was shown how to swim around a wreck.

In my "Boat" specialty I was shown which is the front end of the boat and which is the back end. Which is the "starboard" side and "port side" and how to jump from a boat while holding the mask and reg in your mouth.

In my drift specialty there was no significant drift so we did all the drills in fairly still water.

Navigation was not bad but vis was great so it was not a real test of navigation either. When I attempted to dive and try my navigation skills in the quarry in 5 feet viz I realized I knew nothing of U/W navigation.

That was what made me an "ADVANCED OPEN WATER DIVER" and gave me a shiny card which is a requirement all over the world. I am relieved to know that there are many instructors who conduct their training differently. I have seen some pretty extensive AOW programs being run.I am just saying what exactly the same card meant in my situation.

 

[BDSC]

I basically agree with you, although I am more in your husband's class in terms of the Techreational specialty, which, as you well know, I also teach. As much as I agree with you that every diver should take a class that teaches those skills, it is a hard sell for most divers. They simply don't see a need for it, probably because they don't see many divers with those skills and thus don't have an image of what they are missing. It would make that sell even more of a challenge if they were required to buy a lot of new gear to learn those skills. Once they see the benefit, they may well want to change, but until they see the benefit they will have no incentive.

So I want to make sure I understand this correctly. Are folks saying that if a person takes the GUE Fundies class they would have to buy or borrow new/different gear to be in some sort of compliance with how GUE wants you to be geared up?

In in your techreational class, can they use whatever gear they already own?

 

[Centrals]

So I want to make sure I understand this correctly. Are folks saying that if a person takes the GUE Fundies class they would have to buy or borrow new/different gear to be in some sort of compliance with how GUE wants you to be geared up?

Only GUE approved gear. You do not have a choice.
The list is in its site.

 

[boulderjohn]

So I want to make sure I understand this correctly. Are folks saying that if a person takes the GUE Fundies class they would have to buy or borrow new/different gear to be in some sort of compliance with how GUE wants you to be geared up?

In in your techreational class, can they use whatever gear they already own?

Yes. GUE requires specific gear. The TecReational Diver course takes divers in the gear they have. It does make recommendations for changes during the course, especially if some of the gear is problematic. It can be really hard to back kick with some fins, and it can be a real challenge to trim people out in some gear configurations. Solving these problems can then become an incentive for gear changes, but it is not required.

 

[scubadada]

In my AOW I was expected to learn deep diving in one dive. This was a dive in which I was taken to 75 feet and was given a card that authorized me to dive to 130 feet. I never felt narcosis during training since we were at 75 feet but when I attempted a dive below 100 feet on my own then I realized what they mean by nitrogen narcossis.

In my "Wreck" specialty I was shown how to swim around a wreck.

In my "Boat" specialty I was shown which is the front end of the boat and which is the back end. Which is the "starboard" side and "port side" and how to jump from a boat while holding the mask and reg in your mouth.

In my drift specialty there was no significant drift so we did all the drills in fairly still water.

Navigation was not bad but vis was great so it was not a real test of navigation either. When I attempted to dive and try my navigation skills in the quarry in 5 feet viz I realized I knew nothing of U/W navigation.

That was what made me an "ADVANCED OPEN WATER DIVER" and gave me a shiny card which is a requirement all over the world. I am relieved to know that there are many instructors who conduct their training differently. I have seen some pretty extensive AOW programs being run.I am just saying what exactly the same card meant in my situation.

Why didn't you ask for your money back so you could apply it to an acceptable/good class? Seems like the very poor quality would have been reasonable grounds for your request. If the facility would have balked, you could have gone to PADI. In fact, it is difficult for me to believe you did all 5 crappy dives and then accepted your reward card.

Seems like many of the AOW complaints are after the fact. How many actually did something to improve their own or others situation? How many of these lousy AOW courses were reported to PADI in an attempt to improve the overall quality, get some additional constructive feedback to the facility?

Complaining on SB is not going to get anything done

 

[tursiops]

I think there have been different versions of aow. Some say they learned a lot and really spent time in skills, and some (myself included) saw and instructor who just phoned it in, and found the "manual" to be very superficial in coverage and not worth the $$. Part of it may be the instructor, sure, but it sounds to me like some classes in the past were really designed to hone skills, while the current PADI aow doesn't necessarily offer that, but rather just a sampler of specialty classes to draw the diver in for more $$$. After my aow, I went to a tech instructor and he was shocked that I had an aow card without having ever done a night dive. He thought night dives teach certain fundamental skills that (he thought) were required for aow. I think the "advanced" in the name is an almost criminally ignorant misnomer.

For some perspective, here are some highlights from my worthless AOW class:

1. "Peak performance buoyancy" 1 dive. Depth about 12'. Visibility, 3-5'. Shore dive. We spent 15 minutes, in waves, trying to figure out how much weight we should be wearing. Then we swam together in a line parallel the shore, about 30' then turned around, losing a member of our group, then surfaced, regrouped, Done.

2. "Deep dive" 1 dive. Depth 85'. Visibility 30-40'. We 6 students went down with 1 instructor, upon making it to the wreck at 85', one student was already down to his turn pressure and was sent back up by himself. The other 5 of us swam along the wreck for 30', turned back, ascend. No task to try like in the book, no colored sheets, no lights, and certainly no discussion of gas management.

3. "Wreck dive". Exactly the same as above, same location. This time one student had a calf cramp and decided to sit out, upset that he wouldn't get enough (5) dives for his aow card.

4. "Navigation". Shore dive. Depth 20' visibility 40'. This one wasn't too bad. Each of us were sent off to swim a square. Except for the fact that we were all sent off alone, it was a good practice dive.

5. "Search and recovery" at same location as #4 after surface interval. We were looking for the buoy we saw from the shore. Diver who'd missed the wreck dive is instructed to also "appreciate the fish" and this dive would count as 2 dives, a search and recovery dive and an underwater naturalist dive. We went in together, found the buoy, and then everyone went their own ways, essentially turning the whole thing into a first solo dive for everyone except me and the buddy I wouldn't let get away from me. the guy with the cramp earlier wanders up the shore and freaks out in the waves, thinks he's drowning in 4' water (he's easily 6'5") and calls his dive early (still gets his "2 dives" though). Another one keeps losing the weight from his BC and making uncontrolled ascents.

What did I learn from my aow class? Seek out world class instructors, don't buy Padi card-classes. The point should really be, that the AOW card is just that, a card, and does not necessarily mean anything good about your skills. You can try to find a good instructor, that should make a difference, but signing up for a padi class seems like a roll of the dice to me, wheras sure, sounds like some gue guys are a little intense and zealots for their system, but I've never heard that a gue class is anything but transformative.

As you describe them, all five dives in your AOW class violated PADI standards. Your instructor should be removed from PADI membership, if your description is accurate.

 

[ddmattos]

This absolutely comes down to Instructor selection.

It is my understanding that GUE/UTD/Cave/Wreck instructors are held to much higher standards just to become instructors as apposed to other agencies. But there are a lot of equally or more qualified instructors from other agencies.

This is why you really need to do a search for a high quality instructor.

Ask for recommendations from your dive buddies that have done higher training and here on Scubaboard.

Then interview the instructors for example by asking about:

• Their highest certification as a diver and as an instructor.
• Do they still take courses as a student? When was the last time took a course? Which one and why?
• What kind of diving do they do when not teaching?
• and so on......

Write your questions down and leave space for notes so you don't forget anything and be respectful of the Instructors time.

Narrow it down to a few and ask if you can get a quick dive with them or some pool time. Also ask if you can observe some class time. This will give you a chance to observe the instructor in and above water.

Yes this will take time on your part but it will be worth it.

 

[AdivingBel]

In my AOW I was expected to learn deep diving in one dive. This was a dive in which I was taken to 75 feet and was given a card that authorized me to dive to 130 feet. I never felt narcosis during training since we were at 75 feet but when I attempted a dive below 100 feet on my own then I realized what they mean by nitrogen narcossis.

In my "Wreck" specialty I was shown how to swim around a wreck.

In my "Boat" specialty I was shown which is the front end of the boat and which is the back end. Which is the "starboard" side and "port side" and how to jump from a boat while holding the mask and reg in your mouth.

In my drift specialty there was no significant drift so we did all the drills in fairly still water.

Navigation was not bad but vis was great so it was not a real test of navigation either. When I attempted to dive and try my navigation skills in the quarry in 5 feet viz I realized I knew nothing of U/W navigation.

That was what made me an "ADVANCED OPEN WATER DIVER" and gave me a shiny card which is a requirement all over the world. I am relieved to know that there are many instructors who conduct their training differently. I have seen some pretty extensive AOW programs being run.I am just saying what exactly the same card meant in my situation.

Was PPB not offered by your shop? If it was and you chose boat (for example) instead, that was your choice...just sayin' (Not meant negatively at all, those choices "customize" your experience). The AOW is one of the few ways a dive OP can CYA by confirming you have been below 60 ft. at least once (without having to take your "word" for it). Also, you got the oportunity to dive with an instructor for a few dives. That's probably more important if you do AOW fairly soon after OW, but if the instuctor is paying any attention at all, hopefully he/she could have helped you out if you were doing something grossly unsafe or unproductively. I agree, it's alot to do with the instructor.

 

[PfcAJ]

So I want to make sure I understand this correctly. Are folks saying that if a person takes the GUE Fundies class they would have to buy or borrow new/different gear to be in some sort of compliance with how GUE wants you to be geared up?

In in your techreational class, can they use whatever gear they already own?

Sounds worse than it is.

Backplate/ wing, one piece harness, 5 drings, longhose with bungeed backup, paddle fins, spg on the hip, bottom timer on wrist. Done and done.

 

[Pullmyfinger]

That was true in my case. Being on a dive boat in Alaska (a GUE and PADI shop) and seeing the skill set they had turned me on to the idea of pursuing that kind of training for myself.

As alternatives to the GUE fundamentals course, UTD has a comparable course. IANTD also offers an essentials course.
There may be others out there. Perhaps NAUI.

GUE Fundamentals style training is becoming more widespread; they aren't the only game in town for that kind of skills based training.

I think it will always be a small percentage of dive training; most divers don't see it.
Very regional I suppose.