Any thoughts on wreck looting?

[Rred]

Lermentov-
"I very much doubt thats whats the insurance company have in mind"

On the contrary, it is everyday policy and business for them. When a car is reported stolen (and some of them have just been dumped) the insurer typically has 30 days in which to pay the policyholder. And the insurer knows that x% of the cars will be recovered in 31 days, y% in 45 days, z% in two years. (A couple of exotics that were stolen and laundered did actually turn up that way) and their actuaries figure for such things. Whatever profit they can make from the loss recovery, is still PROFIT that they have a legal right to enjoy. Or at least, "profit" in the sense that it offsets losses.

So, intended or not, it is legally theirs to benefit from. Don't like the laws? OK, change it to"abandoned property". In the US we do that even for real estate. If someone moves onto your property, openly claims it is theirs, pays the taxes and makes good use of it, guess what? After as little as five years (depending on state) that property BECOMES THEIRS. And your title and investment are lost.

We could apply the same laws to shipwrecks, just drop your Congresscritter a note. That would be the same person that similarly simply took possession of all "embedded" wrecks back around 1990, and ended the sport of souvenir hunting.
​

 

[Rred]

Wingy-
"I'm just glad wreck looting wasn't carried out when they found the Vasa."

"Souvenir" wreck looting wouldn't matter, unless it was outright organized criminal looting. The Vasa was and is sovereign property, and remains the property of the Crown/State even beyond the day that the sun goes black and Hell freezes over.

There's very little profit in expensive long term technical diving, versus simply digging up middle eastern, south american, etc. antiquities and simply putting them in a box with false papers. The pros don't need to get cold, wet, and messy in the mud.

 

[Wingy]

RRed we look at the question from different standpoints.

I crew on tall ships. One particular ship is the only 100% authentic ship with a whipstaff in the world. When she was being built the Vasa recovery was like striking gold - tiny details such as the manner in which the sails had been sewn back in the 1600s for the first time were available for us to see and replicate without having to rely on mostly scraps of information from non verified sources.

So, to me personally, the Vasa is a little more than a souvenier.

 

[tomfcrist]

Alpena is where I caught the Great Lakes shipwreck bug back when I was a reporter on the local paper in the early 90s for 18 months.

Alpena...now that’s an interesting little town

 

[Rred]

Wingy, I never said Vasa was a souvenir, or that ordinary divers should be able to take souvenirs off her. Vasa was and is Crown property. And of distinct historic value.

That's not your average wreck. Nor was the salvage of Vasa the average response from a state to the news "there's an old boat down there."

More often, they are left to rot and be totally lost to the sea, as a simple matter of budget.

 

[Wingy]

Wingy, I never said Vasa was a souvenir, or that ordinary divers should be able to take souvenirs off her. Vasa was and is Crown property. And of distinct historic value.

That's not your average wreck. Nor was the salvage of Vasa the average response from a state to the news "there's an old boat down there."

More often, they are left to rot and be totally lost to the sea, as a simple matter of budget.

How true that is. The ship I was referring to - the Duyfken - was holed while being dragged over the reef at Ternate after accidentally bumping into Australia but didn't find anything of interest so drew a little sketch, partied with the ladies, brawled with the men and set back off to Port Oranje. I went to Ternate 406 years later, walked along the fortress wall, tried to envisage her being hauled across the reef....gazed out...and saw a false teeth shop lol. All reclaimed land now..she would've been stripped and what wasn't of use eventually entombed under a row of shops. She would be one of thousands around the world.

The Vasa certainly is a special case - one museum I will be going to see.

 

[KevinNM]

There's very little profit in expensive long term technical diving, versus simply digging up middle eastern, south american, etc. antiquities and simply putting them in a box with false papers. The pros don't need to get cold, wet, and messy in the mud.

There is even more profit in having a bunch of the locals carve new artifacts and you sell them with false papers.

 

[pepperbelly]

I think for some wrecks, like the Andrea Doria, that is disintegrating it is OK to take souvenirs.
Other wrecks, especially warships- no.
It's like going caving and taking a souvenir stalactite, or a piece of coral from a reef. Leave them for the next diver to find.

 

[oldschoolto]

I ask again.. Why are war ships any different ? ... I'm just interested as to how and why or when makes a difference to some people.. Or is it ok after 10, 100, 1,000 or 10,000 years and what changed in that timeframe..

Jim.

 

[tomfcrist]

I ask again.. Why are war ships any different ? ... I'm just interested as to how and why or when makes a difference to some people.. Or is it ok after 10, 100, 1,000 or 10,000 years and what changed in that timeframe..

Jim.

For me it’s the same reason you don’t burn the flag, or laugh at the shadows on the ground in Hiroshima